Crazy element mounting idea, keggles

[MidTNJasonF]

In my build (eHERMS, 3 converted kegs, two 5500 ULWD elements, BrewTroller, single tier, multi pump) I have contemplated a couple different element mounting options.

Has anyone considered mounting the element, utilizing a tri-clover adapter, to the main sanke fitting on a keg? Keg flipped over of course.

It would put the element center mass of the kettle. It would be easily removable. It would not require any additional welding, soldering, or weldless bulkhead solutions. It would not interfere with an immersion chiller or a HERMS/Hex coil.

The obvious problems to me would be the inability to use a traditional hop spider in a boil kettle application. Hop pellet material and break material would settle at the lowest point, especially with whirlpool, which would put it right around the base of the element. I am trying to decide if that would be a problem or not.

Pitfalls? Thoughts?

 

[BigJP]

Wouldn't work for HLT as it would eventually stick up above you water level during sparge

 

[jCOSbrew]

I have heard of people installing triclover or other fittings for bottom drain on a keggle.

Keep in mind that the element must be fully submerged when it is powered on. This vertical configuration will effect the minimum volume for mash, boil, etc. It the top 1" of the element is exposed, it will get too hot and burn up.

 

[MidTNJasonF]

I typically do not sparge, well I batch sparge. I would simply turn off the element and transfer over the water. A safety cutoff for low liquid level just above the end of the element could also be wired in. I have a 50' stainless coil for my HLT and it is a beast. I can not imagine the element sticking up above the top of the coil, if the coil is submerged the element should be as well. I will have to measure a few things and see just how high the element would protrude.

 

[BetterSense]

I thought about mounting my element vertically in the bottom of my keggle...it would allow my IC to go right around it. However I only brew 5 gallon batches so the element would stick up. You would either need a funky-shaped element or maybe a small high-watt-density element.

 

[Bobby_M]

I'd rather use the flipped over keg with a bottom drain and install the element in the side.

 

[MrNatural]

I'd rather use the flipped over keg with a bottom drain and install the element in the side.

+1. That's what I'm doing. Bottom vs side drain has more upside than bottom vs side element mount. Just my opinion.

 

[MidTNJasonF]

It would still be bottom drain, I guess that was not clear in my original post. I am thinking a TC Tee, element straight up the middle liquid draw off from the tee. More or less replacing the 90º elbow in a bottom drain setup with a tee.

 

[MidTNJasonF]

Here is a quick and dirty visual.

 

[sicklesr]

No experience in this vertical mount.... but i'd be afraid that if you're not recirculating from that tee, that some wort will be "overcooked" in that area. I'm not sure if you'll get enough convection to move the wort up and out of that T.

Could be comepletely wrong, but I'd hate to have burnt wort up in there!

 

[MrNatural]

Would think it should be fine for HLT, and would allow you to sit your HERMS coil lower with no pickup tube and element in the way.

 

[MidTNJasonF]

Yeah that is what my thinking was. I plan on constant recirculation in the HLT and was considering it in the BK. My system is designed with three pumps in place, one on each vessel, so recirculation would not be a problem.

There will be a small (less than a cup) loss in the bottom half of that Tee but simply taking the element out at the end of a brew session would allow you to clean that small area out. Also each of my vessels is hinged to tip forward for cleaning, service, ect when needed so it could be cleaned out then as well.

 

[MidTNJasonF]

Here is idea number 2. It obviously would eliminate the issue of the element sticking up into the kettle above liquid level but could have its own drawbacks as well.

It is a bit of a hybrid RIMS tube idea. This would have to be used with constant recirculation as well. This idea eliminates the small dead pocket at the base of the element. It also would probably eliminate much of the issue of break or hop material settling around the element base.

 

[kevink]

With the element mounted either vertically or horizontally, how are you planning to keep hop material from clogging the T? Do you ever use whole hops? How are you going to stop them from getting in your pump? You'll be asking for a clog by pulling every cone through the T. The benefit (not requiring any additional welding, soldering, or weldless bulkhead solutions) may not justify the problems you could face. Are they the only benefits that you see or are there more?

 

[MidTNJasonF]

That is a non issue. I do not put pellet or whole hops directly into my boil. I use hop spider and have not had any sort of filter on my boil kettle dip tube in a couple years. I do not have issues with my pump or my plate chiller.

 

[MrNatural]

Dude, you're going to hurt your brain if you don't lay off thinking for a bit.

I can follow the vertical HLT concept, with its tradeoffs, but quasi-rims for BK is recipe for disaster, and that is if you can even get a boil out if it.
YMMV of course.

 

[orangehero]

There are some commercial systems that use a similar design pumping the wort across an external heat source (usually a steam calandria). Some even stop pumping once boil is reached, relying on a thermosiphon effect for recirculation through a vertically mounted external heater.

Not pumping saves power, wear on the pump, and avoids liquid shear in the
pump.

Info from Briggs.

 

[MidTNJasonF]

Dude, you're going to hurt your brain if you don't lay off thinking for a bit.

I can follow the vertical HLT concept, with its tradeoffs, but quasi-rims for BK is recipe for disaster, and that is if you can even get a boil out if it.
YMMV of course.

My brain is fine, it enjoys this sort of thing. It is either this or stare at DPMO quality data in spreadsheets for a few hours. Which do you think would hurt more? I am a former machinist with an engineering back ground. If I am not attempting to design something I go a bit crazy.

It might not be well suited for the BK but that does not mean I can't kick the idea around for a few minutes.

I am seriously considering getting a tee and an element housing just to play around with the idea and set up the HLT first. I might decide at that point that it is not worth it for the BK at which point I could use the Tee on the Mashtun so I can run an temp probe in the output of it. Then I can just punch a hole in the BK and weld in a ferrule for the TC element housing, no useless parts left over that way.

 

[kevink]

I'm even more confused as to the advantage now that you said that you can weld a ferrule to your BK. It sounds like you're trying to find a reason to do it, which is fine. I don't see any advantage, but maybe someone will. I usually come up with a solution after I identify a problem. You seem to have a solution to a problem that doesn't exist!

 

[MidTNJasonF]

I can not simply weld a ferrule on. I would have to bribe someone that can weld and make the trip to get it done. It will also require further modification to the kettle.

Advantages (perceived):
No large hole needed on the kettle.
Off the shelf well sealed solution without tools and/or potentially leaky weldless bulkhead fittings.
Element is not across the bottom of the kettle interfering with immersion chillers, Hex coils, pickup tubes, ect.
You could mount the Hex coil in a HLT at the lowest point of the kettle and with a large or tall coil this means a lower volume of water needed to heat and still fully cover the coils.

I could conceivably make and HLT without drilling a single hole in the Keg. Flip it over, cut out the bottom, clamp on the proposed assembly, and drop in a HLT coil setup like an immersion chiller with the fittings goose necked over the lip. Someone without the technical know how or tools to cut, drill, weld, or solder stainless could bribe a neighbor with an angle grinder to cut their keg and finish the HLT with off the shelf relatively simple parts.

 

[MrNatural]

There are some commercial systems that use a similar design pumping the wort across an external heat source (usually a steam calandria). Some even stop pumping once boil is reached, relying on a thermosiphon effect for recirculation through a vertically mounted external heater.

Having used a steam kettle in an earlier incarnation, I can totally see that working. Spreading the thermal transfer over larger surface lets you move same, or more heat, at lower temperature and faster rate with less chance of scorching.
I also enjoy a good thermosiphon whenever I can get one going.

My brain is fine, it enjoys this sort of thing. It is either this or stare at DPMO quality data in spreadsheets for a few hours. Which do you think would hurt more? I am a former machinist with an engineering back ground. If I am not attempting to design something I go a bit crazy.

Have a brain like that myself
But I do have to think that, if RIMS folks are concerned about scorching wort maintaining 155°, what are the dangers of trying to maintain a boil?

That said, more great stuff has been discovered by accident than by design.
Burn some stuff up and come back to give us report