Marzen/oktoberfest extract recipe

[FatsSchindee]

Hello HBT faithful -

I'm attempting my first recipe on my own (well, based off of other's and the BJCP guidelines, of course!), and would like some feedback/advice, please. I recently built a fermentation chamber (chest freezer with STC-1000 and paint can heater), and would like to take advantage of it by making my first lager (it won't be my first beer in it, though, as I have a stout on deck next - just trying to pre-plan!). I know it's a bit late to brew a Marzen (March) beer... But seeing how I am not at the mercy of ambient temps and caves and such, I figured I'd take advantage of technology and brew one of my favorite lager styles now - tradition be damned! (Still should be able to lager it for long enough to enjoy by October, though, I think...)

Here is my recipe:

4 gal boil; top up to 5.5 gal in fermenter

3 lb light DME (Briess) (33.3%)
5 lb Munich LME (from AHS - says its comprised of 40% Munich malt and 60% two-row) - late addition (55.6%)

Steeping grains (30 min @ 155*):
8 oz Caramunich I (5.6%)
8 oz Carabohemian (5.6%)
4 oz Carapils (maybe? Could leave this one out... Not sure - Seems you may have to mash and not just steep?)

1.25 oz Hallertau @ 60 min (5 AAU)
.5 oz Hallertau @ 15 min (2 AAU)
1 whirlfloc tab @ 15 min

WhiteLabs yeast with starter (per mrmalty for approx lager volume)... Just not sure which one yet - 820, 830, 833, or 838?!

Fermentation schedule TBD also... Still researching. Thinking primary at 50-55 for 2-3 weeks, D-rest at 65 for 2-3 days, then lager at 35ish for 6-10 weeks?

The calculator on the brewersfriend website I've been using puts this beer within the style guideline for a Marzen/O-fest:
OG: 1.057
FG: 1.016 (subject to change based on chosen yeast's attenuation)
ABV: 5.37%
IBU (tinseth): 23.82
SRM: 11.57

The BJCP says this for ingredients:
"Grist varies, although German Vienna malt is often the backbone of the grain bill, with some Munich malt, Pils malt, and possibly some crystal malt. All malt should derive from the finest quality two-row barley. Continental hops, especially noble varieties, are most authentic. Somewhat alkaline water (up to 300 PPM), with significant carbonate content is welcome."

I'm in Austin, and get my supplies from AHS. They don't have any Vienna malt extract (dry or liquid, and neither do NB or MB on their websites)... But they list the grain as 3.5L, and the light DME is listed as 2-6L, so I figured it would be a decent sub (along with the 60% of the Munich LME that is two-row). I know that color isn't the only factor, but the malty flavor of the Vienna should also be approximated by the Caramunich and the Carabohemian, methinks. The Hallertau seem to be a basic noble often used in Marzens (much difference in Hersbrucker instead of regular Hallertau?). For water, I've always used gallon jugs of spring water (filtered RO) from the store... Should I add CaCO3/chalk or NaHCO3/baking soda to up the alkalinity/carbonate content at all?

Thanks for any and all advice or recommendations! Just want to make the best beer I can (with extract - not ready to move up to all-grain or BIAB yet, although could PM if necessary)! Cheers...

 

[wailingguitar]

If the Munich LME is 40% Munich, I would use it exclusively for my extract and ditch the light DME (I make my Maerzen/Ofest 100% Munich..) All you are doing with the light DME is diluting the malt character of the Munich and then having to add it back in through cara malts... that change alone would almost get you there. Using that malt extract exclusively you could cut your caramel malts in half, in which case I would stick to the CaraMunich. Hops look good.

You're right about carapils, it needs to be mashed.

 

[FatsSchindee]

Good point... Not sure what I was thinking! Thanks... Will cut the DME (and Carapils), and tinker with the steeping grains to keep the SRM and IBUs and ABV similar/within style.

 

[SadDog]

Can you post your final recipe when you are done tweaking it? I also just built a fermentor and am looking for a good first lager to try and this one sounds pretty good

 

[FatsSchindee]

Can you post your final recipe when you are done tweaking it? I also just built a fermentor and am looking for a good first lager to try and this one sounds pretty good

Sure... Keep in mind that its my first attempt at a recipe, though! It does fall within the BJCP guidelines, and I didn't get too crazy with ingredients, so it should be pretty good, though, I can only hope to assume...

I figured if I kept it simple on my first try, I could always add a little of this or that later, after I'd tried it and judged if it needed anything else. I guess with the one malt and one hops it would almost be a SMaSH, if not for the steeping grains! Needed/wanted to keep those in there for color and taste, though, and although I could get away with just Caramunich, I've read good things about the Carabohemian and wanted to keep it to add SOME bit of complexity. So there you have it...

Here's the link to the recipe calculator site I used:

http://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/54410/fsoktoberfest

Hopefully that works - if not I can type out the recipe for you. And I'll update if I make any other changes.

I just put a Double Chocolate Stout (and two gallons of cider) into my fermentation chamber for its first real test - holding steady at 18*C (64.4*F)! So I'll probably get this Oktoberfest going in about 3-4 weeks when the stout is done, which should have it done (after 4 wk prim and 6-8 wk lager) mid-October sometime!

 

[FatsSchindee]

I finally brewed this Oktoberfest last night, and the final recipe I used is linked in the above post. I also brewed up a one-gallon batch of a Bohemian Pilsener recipe I came up with at the same time (the pot on the left in the pic - the right pot being the O'fest), so I could get some more use of my fermentation chamber while the O'fest is in there at the same time. I thought I could manage them both at the same time by staggering the starts of each, but it still took me almost two hours longer than a single batch usually does... Probably wont be doing that again. Was able to keep all the pots and ingredients separate (and kept the HAHB part of RDWHAHB to a minimum to ensure this!), but it was more work than I thought it would be. Looking forward to trying both after they're done, though, especially since they are my first personal recipes!

 

[ShaineT]

you can actually do your D-rest at 75% attenuation which may be as little as 10 days after pitching yeast if pitch rate was good. 3 weeks primary may not need a D-rest rather you would just slowly reduce temperature to lager temps then rack to the lagering vessel. There's a few different lager schedules you could potentially use.

 

[FatsSchindee]

I have heard that about doing the d-rest around 75% attenuation before... Sounds like good advice (keep the yeast working before they floc out completely!). I pitched a healthy amount of yeast (two-step starter of 1.040 wort into 1.8L, both steps), so it should be fine. But I am on vacation right now, and won't be back home until about 17 days post-pitching, so I'm guessing it'll be done fermenting, or at least past 75%, by then. Is sitting in my ferm chamber at 50*, so I'm hoping its getting a nice, slow, clean fermentation while I'm gone. Maybe I'll taste when I measure the gravity when I get home, and if any sense of diacetyl at all, then do the d-rest... If not, just rack to secondary and lower to layering temps...

 

[ShaineT]

I have heard that about doing the d-rest around 75% attenuation before... Sounds like good advice (keep the yeast working before they floc out completely!). I pitched a healthy amount of yeast (two-step starter of 1.040 wort into 1.8L, both steps), so it should be fine. But I am on vacation right now, and won't be back home until about 17 days post-pitching, so I'm guessing it'll be done fermenting, or at least past 75%, by then. Is sitting in my ferm chamber at 50*, so I'm hoping its getting a nice, slow, clean fermentation while I'm gone. Maybe I'll taste when I measure the gravity when I get home, and if any sense of diacetyl at all, then do the d-rest... If not, just rack to secondary and lower to layering temps...

This is a good schedule as well. Slowly drop your temperature a few degrees a day until at lagering temp then rack to secondary. Some yeast will remain active during lagering and reduce any diacetyl. Cheers!

 

[FatsSchindee]

This is a good schedule as well. Slowly drop your temperature a few degrees a day until at lagering temp then rack to secondary. Some yeast will remain active during lagering and reduce any diacetyl. Cheers!

Good point about lowering the temps first, then racking to secondary. Obviously that makes more sense than racking first, and then lowering to lagering temp (I'm shooting for 34*)... As getting cold first will cause more cold break and yeast to drop out that I can then rack off of... Thanks!

 

[FatsSchindee]

Checked SG today (17 days post-pitching)... 1.023. OG was 1.056 (1.057 was theoretical from recipe software), and FG from software is 1.016. So 40 pts from OG to FG (or 41, if I use theoretical, which is what I'm basing the FG off of), and 33 pts attenuated so far = 83%... Would now be a good time to do a D rest? The sample tasted great, but sweet (under attenuated, obviously)... But no diacetyl to speak of, either in taste (buttery/toffee) or mouthfeel (oily), at least that I could tell. I'm thinking that raising the temp could help finish it off, though (not that I'm in a hurry). I pitched at 52* (didn't quite get down to the temp I was shooting for during the cool, but figured close enough), and then have been fermenting for the 17 days at 50*. Am thinking of raising temp to 60-64* range...

What do y'all think? Raise it up, or just keep it at 50 and check every few days? I want to keep the gravity checks to a minimum, as I lose about a half a beer each time!

 

[ShaineT]

Since you're not detecting diacetyl you could go with a more traditional approach and slowly reduce temps to lagering over several days. If you want to do a D-rest, not always needed, now would be the time since you're over 75% attenuated.

 

[FatsSchindee]

Well, I waited a couple days, then raised the temp up to 64* for 4 days (Saturday before I left for a trip - just got back late last night, Tuesday), hoping to nudge the attenuation along. Checked gravity today... Didn't move at all (well, got an adjusted reading of 1.024, up from the 1.023 last week. I'll call that margin of error in the readings). Supposed to finish around 1.016. My first stuck fermentation... So now what? I've brought the temp back down to 50*, where it fermented at. Do I go ahead and drop to lagering temps (was planning 34*), and let it sit for the 6-7 weeks, and then hope for the best? Or should I try something else to unstick the fermentation?

 

[BxBrewer]

In the AEB thread we talked about the common stuck fermentation . It's not stuck , theres just no fermentable sugar left. To get around this I keep some extra light DME , maltodextrin , dextrose etc on hand to boost my OG by a few points. That's if I know the extract I'm using has a lower fermentable rate.

 

[FatsSchindee]

In the AEB thread we talked about the common stuck fermentation . It's not stuck , theres just no fermentable sugar left. To get around this I keep some extra light DME , maltodextrin , dextrose etc on hand to boost my OG by a few points. That's if I know the extract I'm using has a lower fermentable rate.

Good timing... I just finished reading that thread! (Great info on there, btw, thanks) That does seem to be the case... Anything to do about it now? I mean, I do have extra light DME and dextrose on hand... If I boil some of either in a small amount of water and throw it in with the beer, rouse the yeast off the bottom, and let it get to work, will it lower the FG? I would think it would just raise the gravity initially, then get back down toward the current 1.024 its at now after the yeast eat it all, thus only upping the abv (and drying it out some?), but not lowering the FG. I'd have to replace part of the Munich LME I used (which is made of 40% Munich malt and 60% 2-row, according to AHS) with the extra light DME or dextrose originally, during the boil, right? How much?...

Basically, how do I learn from this and adjust accordingly next time? My grain bill was: 8 oz CaraMunich, 8 oz Aromatic malt, 4 oz CaraBohemian, and 4 oz CaraPils for steeping, 3 lbs Munich LME for full boil, then 5 lbs Munich LME at flameout. After reading many of the responses in your AEB thread, it would appear I obviously have too many crystal/cara grains in there with the darker Munich LME! The recipe hit all the target style numbers in the software, so I naively assumed it would come out that way... This is my first attempt at my own recipe and my inexperience obviously shows!

If nothing else can be done for this batch, I'll still lager it and bottle... It's a bit on the sweeter side, but still tastes pretty good. It'll just be a session Oktoberfest, at 4.2% (vs. planned 5.4%). Thanks for any help!

 

[antwort]

I'm just curious how this turned out? Thanks!

 

[FatsSchindee]

Given the above info that is ended at 1.024, I thought it turned out much better than expected! It was quite a tasty beer. It wasn't too sweet; I think the different crystal malts and the aromatic played well with the Munich to create a decent depth if flavor. It was definitely malt forward, as the style should be, I believe, but not cloying. I wish I had more of it still!

For next year, I'm going to try to convert it into an all-grain (I've started doing BIAB since then), and see how close I can recreate it (and make it more fermentable!)... Although maybe having it be so sessionable at 4.2% was part of its drinkability?


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