Different hops for a Best Bitter

[marchio-93]

Hello everyone! I wanted to ask you a few questions about this "Manchester Bitter" recipe that I found.

20L
Maris Otter 94%
Caramalt 4%
Crystal 150 2%

a bit of Herkules for 60'
E.K. Golding for 15'
1 oz Motueka Flame out for 20'
1 oz Waimea Flame out for 20'

Caramalt is not available from me, what can I replace it with? I'm afraid of going too far on sweetness.

Are Motueka and Waimea doing well as a profile in this style? Can I try to increase the quantity?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

That looks like an early 2010s version of Marble Bitter - they keep messing with the recipe, these days it's :

• Hops: Comet Ekuanot CTZ
• Malt:Extra Pale Ale Cara Munich Crystal 150 Dark Munich

You are adding a bit of richness just by using Otter Pale rather than Extra Pale, you're right to worry about overdoing the sweetness - just 2% of ordinary crystal or similar will do.

Marble are famous for doing things a bit differently, and being big fans of New Zealand hops (partly because one of their former head brewers was a Kiwi). So NZ hops are maybe not typical of bitter in general, but there's a definite subset of modern cask ales that look something like the above - and they tend to have less speciality malts than your version.

But remember that bitter is all about balance, you should be able to taste all four of the ingredients - water, malt, hops and yeast. If you start adding too many hops, you start losing that balance.

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

With the 150L, perhaps a dark bitter? If a medium colored bitter maybe 90L?

Other than the Goldings, hops are not standard UK type hops. Nothing wrong with the hops, just need to verify the characteristics, AA%, etc

Just kegged/initial glass of my Fuller's ESB

 

[marchio-93]

That looks like an early 2010s version of Marble Bitter - they keep messing with the recipe, these days it's :

• Hops: Comet Ekuanot CTZ
• Malt:Extra Pale Ale Cara Munich Crystal 150 Dark Munich

You are adding a bit of richness just by using Otter Pale rather than Extra Pale, you're right to worry about overdoing the sweetness - just 2% of ordinary crystal or similar will do.

Marble are famous for doing things a bit differently, and being big fans of New Zealand hops (partly because one of their former head brewers was a Kiwi). So NZ hops are maybe not typical of bitter in general, but there's a definite subset of modern cask ales that look something like the above - and they tend to have less speciality malts than your version.

But remember that bitter is all about balance, you should be able to taste all four of the ingredients - water, malt, hops and yeast. If you start adding too many hops, you start losing that balance.

Thanks very much, but pleeease can you help me with the malts in the recipe? Which do you suggest to add?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Thanks very much, but pleeease can you help me with the malts in the recipe? Which do you suggest to add?

you're right to worry about overdoing the sweetness - just 2% of ordinary crystal or similar will do.

I'm amazed you can't get some kind of caramalt, so I was deliberately being vague - what can you get?

With the 150L, perhaps a dark bitter? If a medium colored bitter maybe 90L?

If it's got Manchester in the name, it's going to be pale - the prototype is Boddingtons (Bitter, not Export/Pub) which is pretty much a pale malt SMaSH. There seems to be a bit of a trend to use Extra Pale (or eg a pilsner/pale mix) and then add just a whisper of darker malts for a bit of flavour complexity and to give a bit of orangey-gold depth to the colour, but no more than that. Untappd gives you an idea of the target :
https://untappd.com/b/marble-beers-manchester-bitter/9054/photos
https://untappd.com/b/jw-lees-and-co-mpa-manchester-pale-ale/350630/photos

Depressing to see none of those recent pics in a pub though....

Other than the Goldings, hops are not standard UK type hops.

Actually they are - I don't think outsiders realise how far British cask beer has moved on, inspired by beers like Marble Bitter. We never really drank things like ESB, whereas we are drinking this kind of new wave bitter by the tankerload. I enjoyed Jeff Alworth discovering the style :
"What we did have was a beer called Galatia from Wylam (Newcastle). It was a cask bitter, just 3.8%. Ah, but instead of an earthy little wreath of English hops to accent the yeast and malt, it presented a locomotive of juicy. The brewery describes this as “heavy absorbed dose of New World hops,” and it seems to have both New Zealand/Australian as well as American varieties. The remarkable thing is that it managed to create the kind of balance I’ve never encountered in a session IPA. Putting it on cask allowed the malt to emerge, both as a flavor note and textural element. Session IPAs are comparatively top-heavy: all hops with nothing underneath to support them. Patrick and I discussed this in our recent pale ales podcast. This “juicy bitter” solved the riddle by going on cask.

The presence of malt is what makes this beer sing, but I suspect we can taste and feel it on our tongue largely because the hops additions have been dialed back. On keg, I wouldn’t be surprised if everything seemed a bit pallid and sad. But putting it on cask, serving at 55 degrees, and allowing those hop aromatics to blossom, changes everything. You get intense juiciness, but not just juiciness. Less hops on cask means more flavor—of both malt and hop. Amazing. I don’t know if Americans will ever drink cask, but they’d damn sure drink Galatia."

Later in that series, after visiting Harvey's and Bermondsey, he also gets to drink Marble Bitter at the source (and rightly prefers its sister Pint).

 

[marchio-93]

I'm amazed you can't get some kind of caramalt, so I was deliberately being vague - what can you get?

CaraHell, CaraPils, CaraRed and stuff like that! Just Caramalt in Italy is not available.

For this recipe i would like to go to with a "pale", FRESH bitter as you said, so can I go with Maris Otter, 4% of Crystal 70L and nothing else? BU/GU 0.75, E.k. Golding for flavour and Mouteka + Waimea for aroma. No Dry Hopping (right?)

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Caramalt is around 30-35 EBC (15L), so I guess Carahell is about the closest, maybe CaraBelge. I wouldn't worry *too* much about it.

Northern bitters have higher BU:GU than southern bitters, typically around 0.85 even for "old school" bitters and for this style of hoppy bitter they can go up to 1.00 (but that's assuming quite a lot of bittering contribution from the NZ hops at flameout. See this thread which I suspect is talking about the same recipe.

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

I'm amazed you can't get some kind of caramalt, so I was deliberately being vague - what can you get?


If it's got Manchester in the name, it's going to be pale - the prototype is Boddingtons (Bitter, not Export/Pub) which is pretty much a pale malt SMaSH. There seems to be a bit of a trend to use Extra Pale (or eg a pilsner/pale mix) and then add just a whisper of darker malts for a bit of flavour complexity and to give a bit of orangey-gold depth to the colour, but no more than that. Untappd gives you an idea of the target :
https://untappd.com/b/marble-beers-manchester-bitter/9054/photos
https://untappd.com/b/jw-lees-and-co-mpa-manchester-pale-ale/350630/photos

Depressing to see none of those recent pics in a pub though....


Actually they are - I don't think outsiders realise how far British cask beer has moved on, inspired by beers like Marble Bitter. We never really drank things like ESB, whereas we are drinking this kind of new wave bitter by the tankerload. I enjoyed Jeff Alworth discovering the style :
"What we did have was a beer called Galatia from Wylam (Newcastle). It was a cask bitter, just 3.8%. Ah, but instead of an earthy little wreath of English hops to accent the yeast and malt, it presented a locomotive of juicy. The brewery describes this as “heavy absorbed dose of New World hops,” and it seems to have both New Zealand/Australian as well as American varieties. The remarkable thing is that it managed to create the kind of balance I’ve never encountered in a session IPA. Putting it on cask allowed the malt to emerge, both as a flavor note and textural element. Session IPAs are comparatively top-heavy: all hops with nothing underneath to support them. Patrick and I discussed this in our recent pale ales podcast. This “juicy bitter” solved the riddle by going on cask.

The presence of malt is what makes this beer sing, but I suspect we can taste and feel it on our tongue largely because the hops additions have been dialed back. On keg, I wouldn’t be surprised if everything seemed a bit pallid and sad. But putting it on cask, serving at 55 degrees, and allowing those hop aromatics to blossom, changes everything. You get intense juiciness, but not just juiciness. Less hops on cask means more flavor—of both malt and hop. Amazing. I don’t know if Americans will ever drink cask, but they’d damn sure drink Galatia."

Later in that series, after visiting Harvey's and Bermondsey, he also gets to drink Marble Bitter at the source (and rightly prefers its sister Pint).

OK. Interesting. I was going by what I read in "Brew Your Own British Real Ale" 3rd edition by Graham Wheeler.