mash PID settings

[inda_bebe]

I just got my 2352 PID working but stuck on the recommended settings for a recirculation BIAB e-kettle. What P/I/D numbersn is everyone using? Just did an auto tune and adjusted the pb to +3.4 now its dialed in w/ my glass thermometer. Filt is at 5
and A-M is at 0.

 

[jeffmeh]

While it may be interesting to know of other people's settings, yours will likely be different, based upon the characteristics of your individual system (e.g., actual line voltage, element, water volume, kettle diameter, kettle thermal mass, kettle insulation, altitude, ambient temperature, etc.). Why not just go with your autotune settings?

 

[inda_bebe]

i did the auto tune and everything but i screwed around w/ the P/I/D numbers and not sure what the default numbers were. im reading the manual to find out how to do a factory reset but cant find it. also, the reason why i ask is because the heating element will turn off about 5 degrees over my SV. so i delayed it somewhere when i was screwing w/ it.

 

[inda_bebe]

actually i think im supposed to followed the numbers on INITIAL SETTINGS to bring it back to default

 

[jeffmeh]

Just run the autotune again and it will arrive at new settings based upon the autotune.

 

[inda_bebe]

ill give it a shot. thanks for the reply

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

You can auto tune any time you'd like, and frankly you should auto tune any time you change anything in the setup - start using different hoses with your pump? Wrap the keggle in insulation? Get a new element? All those things would impact the values in the PID and an auto tune should definitely be run.

 

[jCOSbrew]

I know the PID parameters are supposed to make the control system "smarter" but I can hit my strike temp in my eBIAB kettle within 1 deg F by recirculating with PID mode off, using relay on/off control mode.

 

[inda_bebe]

i was doing an auto tune during my lunch break, how long does it take? i was letting it go for about 10 min. but it didnt seem like it was done.

also, if i was going to use it during mash do i set it on auto or manual? same during boil, auto or manual? and at what percent?

 

[stlbeer]

Auto tune can take more than 10 minutes but it depends on how quickly your system cools down and heats up. Make sure you're running your mash recirculation pump at the same flow rate as you would for a beer and using a similar water volume as you would for a beer. I think mine took about 15 minutes to tune. Also don't start the autotune process until you are within 5 degrees of your setpoint. i.e. with SV set within the range you normally use (I set mine for 145*F) then started auto tune at 140*F and I had 10G of water in my mash tun.

I would not use manual mode for the mash temp. Manual mode only sets a percentage of the time power is applied to your PID in the cycle time. For boil I put the PID in manual mode and go with 100% heat until just before the boil over, then I drop it down to about 65% for a 4500w element with 12+ gallons in the kettle.

 

[inda_bebe]

that was the exact detail i was looking for, thanks for the reply.

 

[inda_bebe]

I just did an auto tune last night with 6 gallons of water and my pump running. I also threw in a glass thermometer for back up. Turn on the element and set the SV to 150. when it got to 145, I turn on auto tune. Thing was flashing for maybe 30min. I decided to turn it off. the temp temp was under by 20 degrees. So I just adjusted the Pub to ±20. I tested it at Auto 100% at 155 and it was maintain the temps. Is this how it was supposed to be set up?

 

[Dr_Deathweed]

I don't know if this will actually help or not, but my Chem E friend gave me this advice once... "Focus on your P and I values, and always set D to 0. Anyone who sets D to anything other than 0 either has no clue what they are doing or know way too much to be applicable to the real world."

 

[theknub]

I just did an auto tune last night with 6 gallons of water and my pump running. I also threw in a glass thermometer for back up. Turn on the element and set the SV to 150. when it got to 145, I turn on auto tune. Thing was flashing for maybe 30min. I decided to turn it off. the temp temp was under by 20 degrees. So I just adjusted the Pub to ±20. I tested it at Auto 100% at 155 and it was maintain the temps. Is this how it was supposed to be set up?

if you are off by 20, something else is wrong.

my autotune took about 40 minutes if i recall correctly. i would highly recommend following the directions on this page.

http://theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel-setup

 

[inda_bebe]

does the heating element turn on and raise the temps while doing auto tune? cause it the temp raised up to 20 degrees from 145 to 165 during the auto tune

 

[theknub]

it will do that, yes. it is testing how quickly your water heats and cools down so that it can learn to maintain an exact temperature.

 

[stlbeer]

does the heating element turn on and raise the temps while doing auto tune? cause it the temp raised up to 20 degrees from 145 to 165 during the auto tune

From the instruction manual: http://auberins.com/images/Manual/Manual version 3.4.pdf

Section 4.5.1
The auto-tune can be started in two ways. 1) Set At=2. It will start
automatically after 10 seconds. 2) Set At=1. Then you can start the auto-tune any time during the normal operation by pressing the A/M key. During auto tuning, the instrument executes on-off control.

i.e. It will turn your heating element on and off.

After 2-3 times on-off action, the microprocessor in the instrument will analyze the period, amplitude, waveform of the oscillation generated by the on-off control, and calculate the optimal control parameter value.

i.e. the amount of time required to tune is equivalent to the amount of time it takes for your system to heat up the liquid. IT will heat to greater than your SV 2 to 3 times as well as cool to below your SV. It has to learn the rate of heating/cooling rates of your system.

The instrument begins to perform accurate artificial intelligence control after auto tuning is finished. If you want to exit from auto tuning mode, press and hold the (A/M) key for about 2 seconds until the blinking of "At" symbol is stopped in the lower display window. Generally, you will only need perform auto tuning once. After the auto tuning is finished. The instrument will set parameter “At” to 3, which will prevent the (A/M) key from triggering auto-tune. This will prevent an accidental repeat of the auto-tuning process.

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

I didn't see anything that said to wait until you were within 5* of your SV... I set my temps, turned on auto tune, and let it do its thing. It took quite a while to do all the temp changes. I never went 20* over target... maybe 1-5* max. I'd guess it took between 20-30 minutes.

-Kevin

 

[stlbeer]

I didn't see anything that said to wait until you were within 5* of your SV.

-Kevin

I suppose you're right. It's not going to change the amount of time it's going to take to heat the water to it's auto tune range, it's just that the PID will only look at the heat curve during the auto tune time when the temp is within that range since that's when I start it. I suppose there are multiple methods.

 

[inda_bebe]

man, tuning this thing sucks. i dont know if its the probe or what, but its fluctuating. while its trying to get to the SV, i look at the Auto mode fluctuates to 100% then 45% then 75%. how do i keep it at 100%?

what should i set the A-M to? 0, 1 or 2? my FILt is also at 5

 

[theknub]

inda, did you follow the instructions i posted?

as for the auto tune, it will continually fluctuate as it tries to reach temp. when it is getting to your pre-set temp, it does this to hit right on the spot. if you want to run it in manual, put it in manual mode and you can run it at whatever percent you want.

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

The whole point of running the PID in auto is that it doesn't run 100% power all the time. It will fire the element at whatever % it has tuned itself to use, given the parameters it is measuring.

 

[jeffmeh]

I assume you realize that when you set the PID to autotune mode, you leave it alone until it is finished, yes?

 

[inda_bebe]

The whole point of running the PID in auto is that it doesn't run 100% power all the time. It will fire the element at whatever % it has tuned itself to use, given the parameters it is measuring.

this is why i was tripping out. i didnt understand that even when its set in AUTO it fluctuates even when it isnt in auto tune. now i understand that it does this, but im wondering why the temp is off by 15-20 degrees

 

[inda_bebe]

I assume you realize that when you set the PID to autotune mode, you leave it alone until it is finished, yes?

yes. i just freak out when the i see the SV @150 then i the PV goes as high as 180 and its still reading 20 degrees less than the glass thermometer.

 

[inda_bebe]

inda, did you follow the instructions i posted?

as for the auto tune, it will continually fluctuate as it tries to reach temp. when it is getting to your pre-set temp, it does this to hit right on the spot. if you want to run it in manual, put it in manual mode and you can run it at whatever percent you want.

should i put the A-M setting at 0 or 2? ill put it at manual mode but it does stay in range of the SV. it will go +/- between 5 degrees. also, i set T - cycle time to 2 for SSR. is this correct?

 

[theknub]

should i put the A-M setting at 0 or 2? ill put it at manual mode but it does stay in range of the SV. it will go +/- between 5 degrees. also, i set T - cycle time to 2 for SSR. is this correct?

A-M is whether you can manually enable the PID. Setting it at zero allows it to be controlled manually by you, which is great for boiling. 2 completely disables this ability. (I forget 1 or if there is one). In your case, yes, set it at 0 since you seem to want to do that especially with BIAB.

As for the T setting, I don't even know what this is. The PID assumes that it is an SSR it is connected to (I believe).

You have clearly changed many settings that don't need to be changed / messed with. I would go back to ground zero, reset everything to default, and change only what is described on Kal's site.

http://theelectricbrewery.com/control-panel-setup

As for you 15-20 degree problem, are you #1, sure the thermometer is right? #2, PID is set correctly for the temp probe you are using?

 

[inda_bebe]

I called customer service and im using the wrong type of wires for my probe disconnector. i need an ktype wire extension. thats why its off like crazy.

Thanks a lot for your help. im going back into the box and just wire it direct. thanks again.

 

[theknub]

I called customer service and im using the wrong type of wires for my probe disconnector. i need an ktype wire extension. thats why its off like crazy.

that certainly makes a huge difference...

 

[BadNewsBrewery]

Yeah, K type probes are WAY different than RTDs. That would explain a lot of your issues. But still - you need to read the manual and the advice on theelectricbrewery.com and run the auto-tune from start to finish - once you get the right wires / RTD probe...

 

[inda_bebe]

Yeah, K type probes are WAY different than RTDs. That would explain a lot of your issues. But still - you need to read the manual and the advice on theelectricbrewery.com and run the auto-tune from start to finish - once you get the right wires / RTD probe...

I adjusted everything back to default settings and it ran good within 5 degrees. I adjusted the Pb to calibrate it to match my glass thermometer. The customer service guy said that I didn't need to run auto tune because it has fuzzy logic. I'm going to run it regardless. Thanks for all your feed back

 

[theknub]

glad it's 'working'

an autotune will certainly help and get the differential set right and you'll be fine.

 

[jeffmeh]

I adjusted everything back to default settings and it ran good within 5 degrees. I adjusted the Pb to calibrate it to match my glass thermometer. The customer service guy said that I didn't need to run auto tune because it has fuzzy logic. I'm going to run it regardless. Thanks for all your feed back

According to the owner of Auber, there is no "learning" except in autotune mode, fuzzy logic or otherwise.