Second batch in a row with odd sweetness

[druss716]

My first batch I made a Hefe, and it turned out waaaaay darker than a hefe should. Almost the color of a dark lager. The taste of it definitely is off. Its got an odd sweet bite to it, that makes it almost undrinkable. I wasn't sure if this was the "twang" I saw a few posts earlier. This batch was bought at my LHBS that the guy put together himself.
The next batch I made was a Brewer's Best Witiber. The color seems to be where I would expect it, but again, I'm tasting this sweetness and. Its not as powerful as it is in my crappy Hefe, but its still there. Aside from the sweetness, something just tastes "off" with it. Has an odd banana flavor that comes and goes. Its been bottled for 2 weeks so far.
So I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong, but its discouraging nonetheless.
I have another wheat from Austin Homebrew thats ready to be bottled in the next week, and now i worry that its going to be garbage like the last 2.
I assume it takes a few batches to make good beer? I just suck right now and feel like I'm wasting money, but I don't want to give up.

Specs:
On the hefe- it was all LME for 60 mins, hops @ 30, add 1 lb of honey in the last 5 minutes. OG was 1.042, FG 1.012. Fermented for 2 weeks, bottle conditioned for 3+.

The Brewer's Best Witbier I steeped the grains for 45 mins. After steeping, added LMR and boiled for 60, added hops for 40, spice pack and more hops. OG 1.048, FG 1.011. Fermented for 3 weeks, Bottle conditioned at 2 weeks so far.

 

[GilSwillBasementBrews]

HefeWeizen Yeast strains can impart a banana flavor depending on pitch rate and Temp. Could be getting Banana flavor from there possibly.

 

[unionrdr]

The banana candy flavor is completely normal for a wheat beer yeast. higher ferment temp gives banana,lower gives clove like flavor. It's an ester produced by the yeast depending on temps,& is a desireable trait of wheat beers.
The darker color & that sweet funky flavor are from puting all the LME in at the beginning of the boil. It's that extract twang you read about due to mailard reactions.
Start doing late extract additions by using about 1.5-2lbs of extract at the beginning of the partial boil for hop additions. Add the remainder at flame out. Especially with pre-hopped extracts,as they should not be boiled at all.
This should fix things...

 

[sweetcell]

the hefe could have been darkened by having boiled all the extract for the full amount of time. a common technique is to put a third of the extract at the beginning and the rest at the very end (last 5 mins). this reduces caramalization and other reactions that happen over the full 60 minutes and darken the beer.

sweet taste: first thing i would suspect is incomplete fermentation which is leaving sugars behind. what temperature are you fermenting at? what yeast are you using, how are you using it, and how much?

don't be discouraged. you will make good beer. we're here to help make sure of that

 

[druss716]

I'm fermenting at 70-72, and sprinkling dry yeast in over the top.
Being new, I'm trying to follow kit instructions to a "T"

 

[Yooper]

I'm fermenting at 70-72, and sprinkling dry yeast in over the top.
Being new, I'm trying to follow kit instructions to a "T"

First, if your room is 70-72, the fermentation itself could be more like 80-82 degrees, as fermentation produces heat. That's way too warm! Even if the fermenter temperature is 70, that's a bit warm for most ale yeast strains. Next time, chill the wort to the mid/low 60s before adding the yeast and try your best to keep the fermenting temperature at 65ish. A "stick on" thermometer on the side really helps.

Next, instead of following the kit directions, I'd suggest doing what was mentioned earlier. Follow the directions except for the part when they have you add all the extract before boiling. Use 1 pound of extract (more or less, you don't have to weigh it- just guess) per gallon of water in your pot. After the wort is done, and your hops are all added, you can add the rest of the extract at flame out and stir well. That's hot enough to pasteurize, and makes a less sweet and "cooked extract" tasting beer.

 

[grem135]

+1 on temps and late extract additions.
What temp are you bottle conditioning? About 70f for 3 weeks will get most regular sized beers done. To short a time or to cold and you will be under carbed and sweet.

 

[rklinck]

And if you don't like the banana flavor, try replacing the wheat beer yeast with a clean fermenting ale yeast (e.g., US-05). Many American wheat beers are made with yeast that does not throw off much flavor of its own.

 

[druss716]

I'm keeping it in the same place i'm fermenting which is a dark closet that stays at 70-72. They have turned out under carbonated as well on top of the overly sweet taste.

 

[BigFloyd]

And if you don't like the banana flavor, try replacing the wheat beer yeast with a clean fermenting ale yeast (e.g., US-05). Many American wheat beers are made with yeast that does not throw off much flavor of its own.

That might help IF he gets his pitching/fermentation temps down to where they need to be to avoid the off-flavors he's getting from fermenting too warm.

 

[sweetcell]

I'm keeping it in the same place i'm fermenting which is a dark closet that stays at 70-72. They have turned out under carbonated as well on top of the overly sweet taste.

i still suspect yeast health issues.

consider rehydrating the yeast next time, instead of pitching it directly on top of the wort: http://www.fermentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/SFA_US05.pdf

 

[BigFloyd]

i still suspect yeast health issues.

consider rehydrating the yeast next time, instead of pitching it directly on top of the wort: http://www.fermentis.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/SFA_US05.pdf

+1 on rehydrating in 1/2 cup of 100*F tap water (boiled then cooled) whenever you use dry yeast. That alone can potentially double the number of cells that survive introduction to the wort.

 

[druss716]

I'm pitching at 70. I'm using a wort chiller, stick on thermometer is saying 70 and I'm using a thermometer in the wort that says 70 when I'm pitching. From what I've been seeing, I should be pitching at 64-72.
When I leave it in the closet to ferment, the stick on is usually 70-72. That's too warm?

 

[rklinck]

I'm pitching at 70. I'm using a wort chiller, stick on thermometer is saying 70 and I'm using a thermometer in the wort that says 70 when I'm pitching. From what I've been seeing, I should be pitching at 64-72.
When I leave it in the closet to ferment, the stick on is usually 70-72. That's too warm?

Yes.

 

[FatsSchindee]

I'm keeping it in the same place i'm fermenting which is a dark closet that stays at 70-72. They have turned out under carbonated as well on top of the overly sweet taste.

My first batch turned out the same way, for the same reasons, I suspect, from reading posts like these and more reading/research. It was a Fat Tire clone from AustinHS - extract - and I also followed the directions exactly, and added all the LME and DME at the beginning of the 60 min boil. I also just kept it in a closet during fermentation, where the temps were around 72-75 (ambient). I used liquid WLP yeast, did one week prim, one week sec, and three weeks bottle, just as prescribed. I knew it wouldn't taste exactly like Fat Tire, but it was definitely sweeter, and had no head (which I attributed to under carbonation. Ironically enough, the only part of the recipe I didn't exactly follow was the amount of priming sugar - I had been reading everywhere to use 3/4 cup priming sugar, so that's what I did, even though the bag of sugar that came with the kit measured out to slightly under one cup (~15/16 was my estimate).). It was also cloudy, which I'm guessing was due to it taking about 30 min to cool the wort down, as well as not using any whirlfloc/Irish moss.

My second batch is currently bottle conditioning, so I haven't tried it yet, but I have a feeling it'll have the same off qualities, since I hadn't learned anything new and brewed it immediately after the first. Now I know! My next two additions will definitely be some kind of fermentation chamber/temp controller, and then a wort chiller with submersible pump prechiller... If/when I can talk the SWMBO into it! (Until then I think I might try a Saison or Belgian of some sort that can handle the higher ferm temps...)

 

[grem135]

. Now I know! My next two additions will definitely be some kind of fermentation chamber/temp controller, and then a wort chiller with submersible pump prechiller... If/when I can talk the SWMBO into it! (Until then I think I might try a Saison or Belgian of some sort that can handle the higher ferm temps...)

Until you can get the ferm chamber a nice storage bin works great. Mine holds the fermenter and about 8 gallons of water and I use 20oz or 1 liter bottles (depending on temp needed) of frozen water to keep my temps on track. I just swap out bottles about every 8 hours for the first few days. Of course still con....er i meen convince SWMBO you need the ferm chamber to brew her favorite.

 

[unionrdr]

My first batch turned out the same way, for the same reasons, I suspect, from reading posts like these and more reading/research. It was a Fat Tire clone from AustinHS - extract - and I also followed the directions exactly, and added all the LME and DME at the beginning of the 60 min boil. I also just kept it in a closet during fermentation, where the temps were around 72-75 (ambient). I used liquid WLP yeast, did one week prim, one week sec, and three weeks bottle, just as prescribed. I knew it wouldn't taste exactly like Fat Tire, but it was definitely sweeter, and had no head (which I attributed to under carbonation. Ironically enough, the only part of the recipe I didn't exactly follow was the amount of priming sugar - I had been reading everywhere to use 3/4 cup priming sugar, so that's what I did, even though the bag of sugar that came with the kit measured out to slightly under one cup (~15/16 was my estimate).). It was also cloudy, which I'm guessing was due to it taking about 30 min to cool the wort down, as well as not using any whirlfloc/Irish moss.

My second batch is currently bottle conditioning, so I haven't tried it yet, but I have a feeling it'll have the same off qualities, since I hadn't learned anything new and brewed it immediately after the first. Now I know! My next two additions will definitely be some kind of fermentation chamber/temp controller, and then a wort chiller with submersible pump prechiller... If/when I can talk the SWMBO into it! (Until then I think I might try a Saison or Belgian of some sort that can handle the higher ferm temps...)

Following the directions was your biggest mistake. Adding all the LME & DME at the beginning of th boil is making that sweet funk & dark color. It makes too many unfermentables by way of mailard reactions & darkening.
And one week primary isn't enough To finish fermenting the beer,& to clean up & settle out clear or slightly misty before packaging. Forget secondary. 3-4 weeks in the bottles at 70 or a lil better is good. And at least 1 week in the fridge for cjill haze settling & getting enough co2 into solution to last more than a couple minutes in the glass.
Chilling the wort down to pitch temp in 20 minutes or less makes less chill haze come fridge time. Not to mention 1 week primary,1 week secondary isn't long enough to get to FG & settle out clear or slightly misty. That's why it's cloudy,didn't give it enough time. And do late extract additions to help get rid of that extra sweetness from boiling the extract too long. Pitch healthy yeast by hydrating dry yeast for 30 minutes,then get it to within 10 degrees of current wort temp. This'll keep from shocking the yeast.

 

[FatsSchindee]

Until you can get the ferm chamber a nice storage bin works great. Mine holds the fermenter and about 8 gallons of water and I use 20oz or 1 liter bottles (depending on temp needed) of frozen water to keep my temps on track. I just swap out bottles about every 8 hours for the first few days. Of course still con....er i meen convince SWMBO you need the ferm chamber to brew her favorite.

Good idea, thanks!

 

[FatsSchindee]

Following the directions was your biggest mistake. Adding all the LME & DME at the beginning of th boil is making that sweet funk & dark color. It makes too many unfermentables by way of mailard reactions & darkening.
And one week primary isn't enough To finish fermenting the beer,& to clean up & settle out clear or slightly misty before packaging. Forget secondary. 3-4 weeks in the bottles at 70 or a lil better is good. And at least 1 week in the fridge for cjill haze settling & getting enough co2 into solution to last more than a couple minutes in the glass.
Chilling the wort down to pitch temp in 20 minutes or less makes less chill haze come fridge time. Not to mention 1 week primary,1 week secondary isn't long enough to get to FG & settle out clear or slightly misty. That's why it's cloudy,didn't give it enough time. And do late extract additions to help get rid of that extra sweetness from boiling the extract too long. Pitch healthy yeast by hydrating dry yeast for 30 minutes,then get it to within 10 degrees of current wort temp. This'll keep from shocking the yeast.

Thanks for the advice... This is the kind if stuff I need from this site! Unfortunately, I just jumped right into brewing after getting the equipment for a present, buying a couple kits, and reading the beginning and intermediate section of the Joy of Homebrewing book. I knew I'd make some rookie mistakes, but didn't realize one would be to follow the directions too closely (lol - thought that would help keep me out of trouble)! But it's hard to just wait to start brewing before knowing everything, of course. Guess that's part of the learning process - learning from mistakes. But even better is learning from others mistakes/experience! So thanks again to everyone for all the hints/advice...

 

[grem135]

I made the same mistakes on my first two. Then I found this site and thanks to many that are helping you now I have several awesome beers.
Again welcome to the hobby/addiction/obsession.

 

[GASoline71]

And if you don't like the banana flavor, try replacing the wheat beer yeast with a clean fermenting ale yeast (e.g., US-05). Many American wheat beers are made with yeast that does not throw off much flavor of its own.

Wyeast 1056 and WLP001 both make an outstanding wheat beer, with no banana or clove.

Gary