COOPERS IPA with DEXTROSE?

[Rounder999]

Could someone give me the pros and cons concerning using a Coopers Kit and Using Dextrose for the fermentable. One of the LHBS is selling these at a good price but is including 4 # of Dextrose. Various beers like IPA, STOUT, Pilsner and wheat are being offered in the COOPER Brewmaster kits. I would have thought a DME would have been better?

 

[BrewFrick]

From what I have heard of the kits you should use what is recommended on them for the extra sugar. They are formulated to brew to style that way. The cans have the correct amounts of fermentable LME and hop extracts to achieve the right body and flavors with the addition of dextrose brewing sugar. I know that if you add too much other DME or LME it can come out overpowering the rest of the flavors and make the beer taste only like the malt extracts. I did this with a couple of different English Bitter kit cans from Munton's, they came out tasting just like the DME I used, and very under hopped. Use the sugar if you use the kits.

 

[Rounder999]

The recipe says to use 500gr of DME and 300gr Dex. What advantage would there be in using all Dex? And does 4# pounds seem excessive?

 

[ifishsum]

DME would be much better, and I would probably avoid a kit with that much dextrose. BrewFrick has a point about simply changing out the dextrose with extract, it could throw it off. If they're cheap enough you could try one and see how you like it, but the Mr. Beer kits I made that included dextrose tasted weak and cidery to me. I did substitute DME in one of the kits and it turned out much better, definitely maltier but it was an Oktoberfest so it worked for the style. I could see a hoppier style being off balance with the simple substitution.

Besides, by the time you bought the substitute extract you'd probably be at the price of a better kit anyway.

 

[ajf]

What other fermentables are there in the kit? 500g DME + 300g Dextrose comes out to about 1 lb 12 oz. If they are the only fermentables (assuming a 5g batch), then it's something I wouldn't like to drink.
Where do you get the 4# from?
Generally, beers that get more than about 10% of the fermentables from sugar (whether dextrose or sucrose (table sugar)) tend to taste cidery, and beers with 100% of the fermentables coming from malt taste like beer should taste.

-a.

 

[Rounder999]

I imagine that the can of NO BOIL extract makes up the fermentables, plus the 2.2 # of dextrose that the LHBS says add. the 4# is what the seller is giving away with the kit. I guess it was intended to make a rather strong brew? Enough to make the brew and have enough left over for priming? I have seen reference on these kits where they use 3.3#, but not sure if it is dextrose. Is dextrose just not a good thing to use?

 

[tomheff]

The Coopers IPA calls for 300 gram of dextrose and 500 grams of dry malt extract.

 

[Rounder999]

Yes, BUT this is what the store sold me. And there are a lot of Aussie Coopers recipes where they are using 1kg of dextrose, no malt. I just don't think it would make a good IPA or Stout. Has anyone actually tried it, or is it too horrible to contemplate?

 

[goodbyebluesky82]

Dextrose does not make beer. It contributes nothing but upping the alcohol level by givin g the yeast sugars to convert. Malt and hops are what make beer, along with the hlp of yeast.

My first foray into brewing was a mr. beer kit, with 50% of the fermentables being from corn sugars. I threw most of it away. Don't take the importance of malt lightly.

 

[eddie]

4 lbs. of dextrose??? That's a heck of a lot of extra sugar. I'm sure you can put together a recipe better than that, though.

 

[tomheff]

I would just buy 1 lb. of DME and use 2 lbs. of the dextrose. In fact I just made that exact beer on Friday. I've made it before and it makes a good beer.

 

[Hagen]

I can't see THAT much sugar being good. I'd sub out all, if not at least half of that suger for DME. I don't care how much fermentables Cooper's adds, that much sugar in a beer isn't right.

 

[yeoldebrewer]

Just an observation: Austin Homebrew Supply recommends their 'add pack' along with Cooper's kits. Ingredients of add packs are listed as 1 lb. corn sugar, 1lb. extra light DME, and 1/4 lb maltodextrin. I'm not sure we are talking about the very same Cooper's kits, but this sounds more balanced.

 

[tomheff]

I can't see THAT much sugar being good. I'd sub out all, if not at least half of that suger for DME. I don't care how much fermentables Cooper's adds, that much sugar in a beer isn't right.

Well. I just tasted it and it tastes fine after only 2 days. It is still fermenting. It has a nice malt and hop balance. The alcohol level is not over the top. It is hopped along the lines of an English IPA not a Pacific northwest IPA. I far as I can tell the extra 700 grams that I added over the Coopers recommedation only serves to raise the alcohol not alter the flavor. This beer has about 5 pounds of LME or equivalent.

 

[Fatgodzilla]

Firstly, a tad amount of history. The Coopers kits you brew come from a family brewery from Adelaide (South Australia) .. same place Rupert Murdoch made his mark on the publishing world .. just thought I'd throw that in .. same company makes some brilliant swill beers that many in the Australian homebrew scene love (Mike Jackson loved the Sparkling Ale, the Pale Ale is good and my favourite bottled beer in the Foreign Extra Stout) .. yet we won't touch the kits. Not because they aint good for a kit (biggest selling kits in world) just that the kits and the commercial swill don't taste the same. Now, that said, you like the Coopers kit, listen to me.

Just about every Aussie home brewer started on Coopers kits. We loved them cos they didn't taste like ordinary Aussie swill beer. Like Nero, we fiddled, like pig farmers we mucked about, like American presidential candidates we debated, we argued and we fought, all about what best to do with Coopers kits.

My answer. The kits are reasonable. Any better, they'd cost you more. Any worse, you couldn't drink the muck. I still believe them the best kit beer easily available. How to make them better ?

Firstly, a crystal malt addition is recommended. Don't get excessive, but Coopers need a little body. Can you mini mash - a little malted wheat addition adds heaps to a Coopers kit (especially head retention and a little flavour / body). You don't need too much extra malt (DME or LME) as Coopers has plenty of flavour. And late hops additions are very welcome. Unless you want a real hoppy brew, late aroma additions are really needed and appreciated.

So without insulting american HBS suppliers, watch out for HBS additions you don't know about. Unless your local HBS bloke has made a Coopers kit with the giznos he's trying to flog you, add your own additions to the kit. Do your research, listen to this advice. Work out HOW you want your brew to TASTE (sorry for screaming) and adjust your additions accordingly. When you want to know what you want you're beer to taste like, then ask your local bloke for help.

Best of luck seppos.

 

[Rounder999]

Fatgodzilla, THAT was the kind of answer I was looking for. I am just starting out here and plan on doing a bit of experimentation. The Coopers kits seem like a good platform to use to that end.

 

[Austinhomebrew]

The kit call for 2 pound of corn sugar. The extract is concetrated but not enough sugars to make the 6 gallons. The grain and hops that are in the kit are balanced for 6 gallons. I use 1 pound of DME and 1 pound of corn sugar and 1/4 pound of malto dextrin. The DME and the malto dextrine add the body that is needed. 4 pounds of corn sugar will not ruin the beer. It will add extra alcohol. It would taste better to add a 50/50 blend of DME and corn sugar if you are going to add extra fermentables. Just so you don't lose the body that is needed.

Forrest

 

[Fatgodzilla]

Austin is right on the money. The simplest way to do any kit brewing is make one stock standard - being metric, we Aussies call this K & K (kit and kilo - of sugar) Now a kilo is close to 2lb. By following the manufacturer's instructions you will get a beer with the desired IBU reading. You bottle about 25 long necks (50 stubbies) and pray the beer is good enough, otherwise you will have a long time to suck bad beer.

As said, Coopers is good, just not brilliant. Adding 4lb of sugar will make a stronger beer but in terms of beer body to alcohol, it'll be thin tasting beer.

Adding extra DME will make the beer maltier but decrease the bitterness to malt ratio, hence (late) hopping to increase the bitterness is good.

One good way of varying the brew is make it up to 5 gallons rather than the 6, using little or no extra sugars or malts.

The maltodextrin is a body additive, giving you more "mouthful". However you get the same things from stuff such as wheat malt and crystal malts.

So Austin's additives are the sort of stuff you might want to use. Not the be all or end all, but a start.

Have fun


PS one kilo of sugar takes the beer alcohol to 4.5 % or higher, depending on the kit. This is standard strength for a beer in Australia. Americans are used to lower strength beer as a rule, so the sugar (dextrose) is only used for alcohol. Drop it back to suit your target. Using different flavours of sugar has some minor influence of flavour, but not enough to warrant much excitement. Let the use of different hops, malts and yeasts do your flavour variation for you. The Coopers yeast is a solid one that can take fermentation at higher temperatures - its far from a bad yeast, just not likely to impart much authority on the flavour. It brings a real fruity flavour to the beer. When you understand what a different yeast can do to the beer, use one.

 

[NightFlight]

What about just grabbing two cans of cooper when they go on discounted near to end of life on the shelf? Putting double the LME into a 19L keg? In Canada this puts it on par with the price of an all grain kit where I live. I'm going to give it a whirl just for fun.