Need suggestions on a yeast... (Sorry long post)

[ViperMan]

Hey all! Love this place - just wanna say...

I brewed a beer a few months ago and now that it's "done"... ...it tastes awful. Lots went wrong I think - mash temps were off, I got poor efficiency, I didn't separate out dark grains, PH was probably off, I think I used the wrong yeast, and when I went to bottle, I left my priming sugar on the stove, bottled the whole batch, then went "AW CRAP!!!" I carefully poured them all back into the bucket, added my sugar, stirred softly, and rebottled.

The beer is an all-grain, self-created recipe called "The Chocolate Grapevine" - it had cocoa nibs in the mash, and raisins in the secondary. I was aiming for an American Brown Ale. I let the raisins sit in secondary for more than 2 weeks - actually forgot about it for a little bit. I used WLP041 for my yeast. I tasted my wort before I pitched my yeast and it tasted AWESOME.

Now, the beer is overcarbed. I'm really not sure how that happened... It's also VERY "boozy", especially just after opened. After it sits for a few minutes, the alcohol flavors seem to dissapate, and you're left with this sortuva too-light body, pretty-sure-its-oxidized, weird-tasting beer...

SO, to my point - I want to try it again. I'm considering going a bit more belgium double/triple with the flavor - I need that residual sweetness to bring out the raisins.

Here's my recipe:
7lb belgian 2-row
1lb munich
12oz chocolate
12oz special b
8oz flaked barley
8oz crystal 80
4oz cocoa nibs, ground and added in mash (I might replace this with 6oz of chocolate syrup)
8oz brown sugar (I might replace this with dark candi sugar)
1oz Northdown, 65 minutes
8oz raisins, chopped and boiled then added to secondary for 7+ days

I'm debating on my yeast... After just a few days of fermenting I was no longer pleased with the flavor imparted by the WLP041. I'm considering using WLP002 as it's a simple, straight-forward yeast. I'm also considering WLP011 - seems pretty similar. I would also consider a belgium yeast, maybe WLP500 or 530, but they're attenuation is higher and I'd have to compensate with more grains to keep my residual, and I think it'd just result in another boozy beer. (My guess is, there's a decent amount of sugar in raisins...)

So what do you guys suggest? I really want to try and create a beer that kinda tastes like liquid Raisinets...

 

[PistolsAtDawn]

Assuming this is a 5-gallon recipe, I would back off 4 oz of the Chocolate malt or sub for Pale Chocolate Malt. Chocolate malt is a powerful flavor, and it can overwhelm other malts. And you're going to add chocolate nibs, so plenty of chocolate flavor there to work with.

I think I would go with a Belgian yeast so that you get the extra raisiny flavors. Just mash at a higher temperature if you're looking for a lot of residual sugars, and I would definitely do a separate steep (add to fermenter after the boil and chill) for your darkly-kilned grains so that you avoid the harsher flavors they can add.

 

[ViperMan]

Assuming this is a 5-gallon recipe, I would back off 4 oz of the Chocolate malt or sub for Pale Chocolate Malt. Chocolate malt is a powerful flavor, and it can overwhelm other malts. And you're going to add chocolate nibs, so plenty of chocolate flavor there to work with.

I think I would go with a Belgian yeast so that you get the extra raisiny flavors. Just mash at a higher temperature if you're looking for a lot of residual sugars, and I would definitely do a separate steep (add to fermenter after the boil and chill) for your darkly-kilned grains so that you avoid the harsher flavors they can add.

Sorry - yes - I was going to use pale chocolate (I actually didn't realize that's what was already programmed into my recipe.)

Considering the Belgian strains, WLP500 is "fruity" while 530 is "low fruitiness". Now, I chose the WLP041 because it was supposed to be "Fruitier" than the 002, and I don't like the outcome. Do I want to use a non-fruity yeast to let the raisins speak for themselves? Or would a yeast like the 500 accentuate my raisins?

And yes - I plan to mash in the 154-156 temp range.

Thanks!

 

[ViperMan]

On second thought, I think I might make a large batch of wort, and then separate it out into three batches and pitch three different yeasts. No better way to experiment than that, right?!?!

I think I'll use WLP500, WLP530, and either the 011 or 002...

*EDIT* In fact, reading the White Labs style guide sheets, I might be better off with WLP001 for the brown ale style, and I just happen to have a bank of that ready to go...

 

[ViperMan]

Starters are bubblin' away! I decided to go with 500, 530, and 002. I thought I'd operate on the premise that this might be more of a "stout" than a "brown ale", if indeed it isn't a belgian ale...

I won't make the wort until next weekend.

 

[PistolsAtDawn]

You know, I got my NHC entry sheets back, and I got dinged really hard for being out of style with the brown ale I submitted. But that's because I was out of style by using Fermentis' S-04 yeast instead of an American ale yeast.

The S-04 yeast can give you some really interesting, Belgian-like esters. Maybe consider that one if you try this again sometime.

 

[ViperMan]

PistolsAtDawn - I do need to experiment more with some S-04. Nice thing is I found a new local supplier of it, too!

What I'm not really sure of is if what I'm brewing is a Stout or a Brown Ale. I consulted with my "Designing Great Beers" book, and learned that Brown Ales have a pretty wide range of possibilities. I'm trying to combine a chocolate "stout" with a raisin "fruit beer," and thought that a brown ale might be in the middle there somewhere. I'm also not using any roasted malts, which I think keeps me out of the stout range.

Thing is, I COULD use the 002 and call it an English Brown Ale, but then my ABV is a bit too high.

 

[slarkin712]

It's a little late now, but I'd try WL540 with your recipe. It's the Rochefort yeast, and it doesn't attenuate as much as the other Belgian yeast. It also produces less banana and bubble gum flavors. It's really great for dark beers where the malt character needs to come through. Just keep the fermentation temps below 70F.

 

[ViperMan]

It's a little late now, but I'd try WL540 with your recipe. It's the Rochefort yeast, and it doesn't attenuate as much as the other Belgian yeast. It also produces less banana and bubble gum flavors. It's really great for dark beers where the malt character needs to come through. Just keep the fermentation temps below 70F.

I actually considered that one but my LHBS doesn't stock it. I was actually surprised they had 500 and 530...

Thanks though - if none of these pan out, I'll order that one online.

 

[ViperMan]

By the way, for those who are following this or who get down this far, the one topic that hasn't really been covered was whether or not I want a "fruity yeast" or if I want a neutral yeast that lets the flavor from the raisins shine on it's own...

I use the WLP041 last time because it was described as "fruitier than the 002" strain by White Labs. I however didn't really care for the end result (though to be fair, I don't think the fruitiness is unpleasant in my beer - I think it's too light of a body and of course over-carbed.)

So what's the recommended approach for a beer with fruit? Use a fruity yeast to accentuate your flavors, or let those flavors speak for themselves?

Discuss!