Local Brewpub getting screwed...

[Rhumbline]

One thing I have learned is to not cast pearls before swine. Someone opposed to a brewery isn't going to be swayed by a six-pack because chances are that they aren't into beer. Talking to these people beforehand probably would not have made them any keener on the idea...

They aren't your target audience. the people you are appealing to are the fence-sitters. You can't worry about appeasing the lowest common denominator.

Also I don't feel like it is your duty to go around politicking for your business. This is America and you don't see dry cleaners going around offering free shirt presses to neighbors or especially explaining to neighboring businesses how they won't be competing...objecting to keep away competition isn't permissable...

You missed my point entirely. No one is going to give you any credit for doing the absolute bare minimum required by law. You don't have a duty to do anything more than is required by the local, state, and federal codes and laws. Where you do get noticed and credit is when you do more than the minimum.

...and I don't know where you live, but I'm always getting flyers for discounts and specials from local businesses new to the area. Even a dry cleaners!

I located in 100% commercial area so that the only people whose approval I needed was the town government. My neighboring businesses weren't thrilled to have another bar or share parking but tough ****. They can't object on those grounds. It's unfortunate that this town is a mix of business and residential.

I hope you never have to rely on your neighboring businesses for any support above what they are legally obligated to provide.

 

[HopHeadGrady]

Sad, but I just see this as a mis managed business venture. I am not that smart, but I would be sure as hell to have all the permits in hand and have a meeting with the people around me before I sunk my kids future and my savings into something. I feel terrible for them, it's their right to own a business. The public also has rights here too. This should have been looked into much sooner. How could you plan a pub with 30 seats and not once think about the effect of traffic/parking out front? I google mapped it. Unreal.

Im not a fan of people who relate to their neibs through bylaw and the city services. But there's loads of em out there... The quiet boring people who peep out their windows and spy on people. I had a street party one night, we spoke to everyone. Everyone was on board. Except one guys wife.... and she called by-law. Just cause. He wasn't home and was away for the weekend. He told us 'it's all good'. He got it when he got home real good from the warden. Not sure how people can spend their lives with people like this.

 

[Rhumbline]

Out of curiosity I read their blog. There's a line in there to the effect that "We're not the type to bake cookies and deliver them to our neighboring businesses" so, you reap what you sow.

They don't seem to have heard of Amy's Baking Company (google it if you don't know), if you are in a battle with the public, for God's sake don't take it on to social media.

 

[rexbanner]

I hope you never have to rely on your neighboring businesses for any support above what they are legally obligated to provide.

I don't. But I did come introduce myself to all of them, gave a lot of them bottles of beer, and even free beer for life to one of them for being very cool. I was just referring to the fact that if they don't like me opening my bar next to theirs, then that is too bad, because I am free to do so. I pay my rent and my licenses just like any of them.

There's a difference between having to do something and wanting to do it. I'm extremely friendly and would establish and maintain good relationships with my neighbors regardless. But the law shouldn't make this a necessity. I believe in freedom and I don't think it's up to private citizens to decide whether or not you can open a business within reason. Obviously I don't want a rendering plant next to my house but that's generally a non-issue because of the way zoning is set up. If it's zoned properly, it should be allowed. It's an issue for the town and county gov.

 

[mattd2]

I don't. But I did come introduce myself to all of them, gave a lot of them bottles of beer, and even free beer for life to one of them for being very cool. I was just referring to the fact that if they don't like me opening my bar next to theirs, then that is too bad, because I am free to do so. I pay my rent and my licenses just like any of them.

There's a difference between having to do something and wanting to do it. I'm extremely friendly and would establish and maintain good relationships with my neighbors regardless. But the law shouldn't make this a necessity. I believe in freedom and I don't think it's up to private citizens to decide whether or not you can open a business within reason. Obviously I don't want a rendering plant next to my house but that's generally a non-issue because of the way zoning is set up. If it's zoned properly, it should be allowed. It's an issue for the town and county gov.

But arn't you forgetting that it looks like part of the permitting process is submissions/objections from the public. If it wasn't then this wouldn't be happening to these guys. The public in this case do have a legal right to bring their concerns up to the council for consideration (it is part of the permit process) and those concerns have to be address and a decision made on them. It doesn't matter if the concerns are 99.99% likely to be dismissed they still have to be address in the proper process = waiting for the 4 monthes for an available time for the concerns to be decided upon.
Consulting early on would either allow for planning for this 4 month timeframe or addressing the issues upfront and not having to go through the hassle.

What if the rendering company managed to spin the zoning laws that it would seem like they could put a plant next door to you, would you not want a chance to object and make the council, etc. really look through if the company was actually correct in their submission?

 

[rexbanner]

But arn't you forgetting that it looks like part of the permitting process is submissions/objections from the public. If it wasn't then this wouldn't be happening to these guys. The public in this case do have a legal right to bring their concerns up to the council for consideration (it is part of the permit process) and those concerns have to be address and a decision made on them. It doesn't matter if the concerns are 99.99% likely to be dismissed they still have to be address in the proper process = waiting for the 4 monthes for an available time for the concerns to be decided upon.
Consulting early on would either allow for planning for this 4 month timeframe or addressing the issues upfront and not having to go through the hassle.

What if the rendering company managed to spin the zoning laws that it would seem like they could put a plant next door to you, would you not want a chance to object and make the council, etc. really look through if the company was actually correct in their submission?

I understand they have the legal right but I am saying that they should not have that right. Other industries aren't required to do this. What if you had an enemy in town who hated your guts and objected to your license for some bull**** reason? You now have to wait four months regardless of the outcome, apparently.

Also, putting extreme hypotheticals aside, I'd be hard-pressed to spin zoning laws in my area to put any type of manufacturing in a residential area. I'd have to request a variance, which is at the discretion of the local government, which would refuse.

My point is that zoning seems to handle these issues fine in all other cases...restaurants, auto shops, machine parts, whatever. All those businesses require parking as well, but no one gets a chance to object to them over that.

 

[TVM71]

Stopped by this brewpub today and purchased a pint glass and a growler filled with their Mango Wheat. First, the beer is good and I am looking forward to trying more of their brews. Second, parking in the Amtrak lot was easy and there were plenty of spots...not sure why there is an issue. Third, the place is small but it gives a nice "homey, comfy pub" feeling. The owners are very customer oriented and take the time to chat with you. I did read on their Facebook recently that one of the neighbors have withdrawn their complaint so it's down to one. Hopefully the issue will be resolved quickly and favorably so that they can move forward with their business.

 

[tgmartin000]

What I am saying is that if you are going to open a business that it would be best to at least approach the neighbours. This is the perfect example why, if they had of talked with they neighbours up front they would have been in one of 3 situations:
1) Neighbour appreciate being involved early, listern to what is actually being started (not jumping to conclusions) and "give their blessing," i.e. say that they have no issues and will not try to stop the business in the future.
2) Neighbour appreciate being involved early but still jumps to conclusions and states that they don't want a bar opening next door - at least now you know that they will possibly pull some **** like they have done here to try and stop the business succeeding.
3) Blatently not want to talk to you - again at least now you know that they will most likely through something into the mix to cause problems.

If you end up at 2 or 3 then at least you can plan for that extra 4 months of no on-licence and it doens't come as a shock.JB

I agree fully that the bad neighbours are the complaintants and they should not be using the system to basically try and bankrupt the business so they won't open - that sucks. But the owners could have been prepared for this hichup if they had consulted in the beginning.

I'm sorry, but since when do the neighbors decide what legally permitted and properly zoned business I open? I respect what you're saying, and agree, but the neighbors have no say.

 

[tgmartin000]

Sad, but I just see this as a mis managed business venture. I am not that smart, but I would be sure as hell to have all the permits in hand and have a meeting with the people around me before I sunk my kids future and my savings into something. I feel terrible for them, it's their right to own a business. The public also has rights here too. This should have been looked into much sooner. How could you plan a pub with 30 seats and not once think about the effect of traffic/parking out front? I google mapped it. unreal.

Try google mapping a pub in midtown Manhattan.

 

[mattd2]

I'm sorry, but since when do the neighbors decide what legally permitted and properly zoned business I open? I respect what you're saying, and agree, but the neighbors have no say.

But the problem is that they obviouly have something to say in this case, and need to have themselves heard no matter what I do agree that the complaint they are raising seems to be a non-issue, and it is aparently them just trying to get their way any way they can (hopefully bankrupt them before they can get started). I agree it is an unfair thing to do to these guys.
But what I am saying, and I hope that anyone who reads this and is thinking about starting a brewpub like these guys did, is - talk to the surrounding neighbours/community early, at least that way you can plan for the people trying to derail you at the 11th hour!
Sometimes (a lot of the time) what is fair and what is legal is not the same thing

 

[TVM71]

Word today is that the second neighbor withdrew their complaint so the license process can now proceed and hopefully by the end of next week the brewpub will have the final green light.

 

[mattd2]

Word today is that the second neighbor withdrew their complaint so the license process can now proceed and hopefully by the end of next week the brewpub will have the final green light.

Reading their blog it seems like the church was within 300' and was an issue to them getting a licence. One that they did approach and get sorted early, looks like they weren't as oblivious to this sort of thing happening as it seemed in the first place. They did just got blind sided.
I suppose anyone within the town could have objected and cause this issue, didn't have to be close neighbours. So how far do you go...

 

[machfive55]

Looks like they have their license now and are good to go.

 

[biochemedic]

Cool! Too bad I was assigned to a different location than York...I was kind of looking forward to checking this place out....

 

[Hackwood]

I'm glad they got it all squared away. I wish them good fortune!

 

[podz]

Reading their blog it seems like the church was within 300' and was an issue to them getting a licence.

That's just insane. Religious fanaticism.

In the USA, there is supposed to be separation between church and state. When churches are allowed to drive the laws regarding how far away establishments with liquor licenses must be, then the churches will populate every single street corner with a tiny little church and say "here we are". Northeast Texas comes to mind.

In Finland, the STATE CHURCH even got into a bit of trouble / scandal/ public discussion for serving 15% ABV wine to underage people during services (18 years is legal drinking age for anything in Finland). They must be serving some damned good wine, too, because in Finland the only red wine available that is 15% is Amarone.

Use google translator if you want to read:

http://www.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/2012010415038820_uu.shtml


In Bavaria, they even brew butt-kickingly strong beer right on some of the church grounds and sell it in their own pubs directly across the street.

One of the best and biggest parties I've ever been to in my life was thrown by the church in a very remote village up in the mountains on a Greek island in the cyclades. It started at about 7 pm in the village square, promptly after a church service. They had two massive barrel grills, about 2500 litres of white wine (for about 300 attendees), a traditional band, etc. Charged 8 EUR admission, and that included a big plate of food. Wine was 1 EUR per litre, delivered to your table by children about 8-10 years old. Everybody in the village was present, from babies up to 100 year old grandmothers. Everybody was drinking and dancing, even the priests, until close to 3 am. And of course people who didn't live in the village drove home through those unlit, twisting, narrow mountain roads drunk as hell.

In Amsterdam, the area within less than half a stone's throw of the Oude Kerk (The Old Church), is the red light district (brothels). I even seen a brothel sharing a building wall with a daycare center.

I'm sorry that you have to, still in 2013, live in such a puritanical culture.

 

[HopHeadGrady]

That's just insane. Religious fanaticism.

In the USA, there is supposed to be separation between church and state. When churches are allowed to drive the laws regarding how far away establishments with liquor licenses must be, then the churches will populate every single street corner with a tiny little church and say "here we are". Northeast Texas comes to mind.

In Finland, the STATE CHURCH even got into a bit of trouble / scandal/ public discussion for serving 15% ABV wine to underage people during services (18 years is legal drinking age for anything in Finland). They must be serving some damned good wine, too, because in Finland the only red wine available that is 15% is Amarone.

Use google translator if you want to read:

http://www.iltalehti.fi/uutiset/2012010415038820_uu.shtml


In Bavaria, they even brew butt-kickingly strong beer right on some of the church grounds and sell it in their own pubs directly across the street.

One of the best and biggest parties I've ever been to in my life was thrown by the church in a very remote village up in the mountains on a Greek island in the cyclades. It started at about 7 pm in the village square, promptly after a church service. They had two massive barrel grills, about 2500 litres of white wine (for about 300 attendees), a traditional band, etc. Charged 8 EUR admission, and that included a big plate of food. Wine was 1 EUR per litre, delivered to your table by children about 8-10 years old. Everybody in the village was present, from babies up to 100 year old grandmothers. Everybody was drinking and dancing, even the priests, until close to 3 am. And of course people who didn't live in the village drove home through those unlit, twisting, narrow mountain roads drunk as hell.

In Amsterdam, the area within less than half a stone's throw of the Oude Kerk (The Old Church), is the red light district (brothels). I even seen a brothel sharing a building wall with a daycare center.

I'm sorry that you have to, still in 2013, live in such a puritanical culture.

This is what we do with old Churches up here... We brew in them...
Local brewery near my house...

http://www.churchkeybrewing.com/