Pliny recipe question

[Ferraro41]

Had a question regarding the Pliny the Elder recipe Vinny Cilurzo provided to Zymurgy in July/August 2009....

For reference, I am following the recipe provided here:

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/attachments/0000/6351/doubleIPA.pdf

The post-boil OG for the recipe is listed as 1.071. If you enter the ingredients as listed into Beersmith for 6 gallons, it hits that number exactly at 75% efficiency.

However, when you use his extract version of the recipe, it's not even close. When you replace the 13.25 lbs of two-row with 6.5 lbs of light DME, there is a .013 gravity difference. That is, 13.25 lbs of two-row with 75% effic results in an OG of 1.060, while the 6.5lbs of DME only results in a post-boil OG of 1.047. In addition, you lose a few more points on the extract recipe by steeping vs. mashing the Carapils, so in total, you wind up with an estimate OG of 1.054, vs the 1.071 for the all-grain recipe.

I can't imagine he's implying the difference be made up by adding a bunch more corn sugar, is he? I would have assumed if the answer was to simply use more DME, he would have listed the amount higher than 6.5lbs.

Hope I am missing something obvious..otherwise I'll just wing it!

 

[jbaysurfer]

That recipe calls for a 1.072 OG. That's what you should be aiming for no matter whether you do all grain or extract. And it also calls for .75 lbs of sugar, which you should not skip as Vinnie has said many times he thinks a double IPA should be a bit on the dry side to let the hops shine through. I also noticed that's a 6G recipe to allow for 1G of hop losses.

TBH, your post was full of info, and had my head spinning a bit.... but I've brewed that beer a dozen times. Just follow the ag recipe you see there, or sub out the base grain for enough DME to get to 1.072 and steep the carapils and crystal. Follow the rest (including sugar and dry hop schedule) and you'll be fine

 

[Ferraro41]

TBH, your post was full of info, and had my head spinning a bit.... but I've brewed that beer a dozen times. Just follow the ag recipe you see there, or sub out the base grain for enough DME to get to 1.072 and steep the carapils and crystal. Follow the rest (including sugar and dry hop schedule) and you'll be fine

Thanks, and fair enough re: the post being full of info. I erred on the side of more info vs less, since it seems the immediate question after a post like this is a request for more information.

I assumed the answer was to simply add more DME to hit the OG target, but then I couldn't understand why he wouldn't have simply included that in the extract version of the recipe, rather than 6.5 LBS, which doesn't get you anywhere close. As I said, I mainly wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything.

Thanks again for the response.

 

[2bluewagons]

Maybe the intent was to offset some extract with a higher proportion of sugar than the AG version? I made this recipe once as AG, and mashing at 151 the numbers came in perfectly. Most of my experiences with extract were similar to my higher mash temp beers, around 155-156 in terms of translating to an FG. If you add a higher proportion of sugar to the extract version, you might stand a better chance of getting the FG in the 1.010 range which is very important for this beer.

Just an idea though, no experience with an extract version of this one. Good luck, it's pretty fun to play with all those hops!

 

[Ferraro41]

Maybe the intent was to offset some extract with a higher proportion of sugar than the AG version?

Yep, I thought about that, which is what spurred my original question. Though if you stick with the 6.5 lbs of DME he lists in the extract recipe, to make up the difference in gravity with corn sugar, one would have to increase the sugar from 3/4 lb to 3 lbs (!). My fear there was it finishing too thin.

I think I'll play around with it...maybe increase the corn sugar a bit (double it?), but then make up the rest with DME. For the record, I've never really had any issue getting fermentation to finish to the correct number, as long as I'm using DME as the base malt. LME on the other hand...can never get it finish below 1.020.

Thanks for the response!

 

[jbaysurfer]

Thanks, and fair enough re: the post being full of info. I erred on the side of more info vs less, since it seems the immediate question after a post like this is a request for more information.

I assumed the answer was to simply add more DME to hit the OG target, but then I couldn't understand why he wouldn't have simply included that in the extract version of the recipe, rather than 6.5 LBS, which doesn't get you anywhere close. As I said, I mainly wanted to make sure I wasn't missing anything.

Thanks again for the response.

Oh yeah, and more info is always better. I was just trying to say that I could've missed something. I also haven't brewed extract for a really long time so I guess I didn't feel well qualified to over analyze that part of the recipe. That's definitely not the right amount of dme though. So nice catch. Ultimately I mostly just wanted to reassure you that if you hit the OG you'll be fine, regardless of what that recipe said.

Edit: Extract or AG, I always use 1lb of sugar in this recipe. I just live with the slightly higher gravity finish of extract. Throwing too much sugar at the yeasts can cause problems of it's own...and in some cases, I've found, the yeast will go crazy eating the simple sugars and lose interest/flocculate out/fall asleep before finishing the more complex sugars of the extract.

 

[nobita]

I brewed the AG version recently (right off the PDF you linked to). After ~ two weeks in the keg it is starting to taste good, but it's definitely not Pliny. I just had the real version and mine turned out much lighter in color, it's thinner bodied, and has way more bitterness (harsh). I hit all my numbers and temps very closely, so just wondering how much of the difference is due to my process vs recipe...I suspect it's must be my process but would think at least the color would be close.

Has this recipe been coming out "cloned" for you guys?

 

[jbaysurfer]

I brewed the AG version recently (right off the PDF you linked to). After ~ two weeks in the keg it is starting to taste good, but it's definitely not Pliny. I just had the real version and mine turned out much lighter in color, it's thinner bodied, and has way more bitterness (harsh). I hit all my numbers and temps very closely, so just wondering how much of the difference is due to my process vs recipe...I suspect it's must be my process but would think at least the color would be close.

Has this recipe been coming out "cloned" for you guys?

How much lighter? That's surprising to me because Pliny is only about 7 SRM to start with. Any lighter and you're in american lager/or pilsner land.

Regarding body, what kind of mashtemps did you use? Did you mash out? I tend to mash this beer @ 150F and mash out. Generally I get good body from it. Also, I boil it aggresively so that gives me a bit of the Maillards that increase the color and the mouthfeel ever so slightly. Ultimately, though, it's supposed to be a dry, light bodied beer that allows the hops to shine through.

Harsh bitterness could be lots of things. Pellet hop trub can certainly be one of them...but in general, I find the FWH to mellow out the insane bitterness.

To answer your question..truly cloning a beer is pretty difficult to do ime, but yes, I have, on at least one occasion, fooled an expert palate with my Pliny clone....using that recipe. So it can be done.

 

[nobita]

Thanks! it's good to know the recipe is spot on. I would say my version is just a bit lighter in color. I thought it was further off but I wasn't comparing using the same style of glass.

I mashed at 152 and heated the first runnings while sparging. My sparge water was ~180 degrees, which brought the grain bed up to ~168. This has been my version of a mash-out....I only let the sparge rest for a few minutes and then drain at full speed.

The bittering seems to be getting a bit less harsh as it ages but it's still pretty aggressive. I will have to try FWH next time. I just went by the recipe and did the full 3.5 oz of columbus at 90 min. I used all leaf hops during the boil and I did squeeze the hops with my spoon when removing them (maybe also causing harsh bitterness?). I used pellets for dry hopping.

I'm still trying to nail down the all grain process. My beers are turning out clean, but the last few batches are on the "thin" side and I want to get more "character" into them. I am wondering if I should mash higher or maybe trying a no-sparge.

For some reason my efficiency is low but very consistent (around 62%) so I've just been using more grain and I've been hitting all my volume and gravity targets.

On thing I should note is that it's been ~45 days from brew date and the beer does seem to be improving still. How long have your pliny batches (or your higher gravity beers in general) been taking before they taste optimal?

 

[jbaysurfer]

Thanks! it's good to know the recipe is spot on. I would say my version is just a bit lighter in color. I thought it was further off but I wasn't comparing using the same style of glass.

I mashed at 152 and heated the first runnings while sparging. My sparge water was ~180 degrees, which brought the grain bed up to ~168. This has been my version of a mash-out....I only let the sparge rest for a few minutes and then drain at full speed.

The bittering seems to be getting a bit less harsh as it ages but it's still pretty aggressive. I will have to try FWH next time. I just went by the recipe and did the full 3.5 oz of columbus at 90 min. I used all leaf hops during the boil and I did squeeze the hops with my spoon when removing them (maybe also causing harsh bitterness?). I used pellets for dry hopping.

I'm still trying to nail down the all grain process. My beers are turning out clean, but the last few batches are on the "thin" side and I want to get more "character" into them. I am wondering if I should mash higher or maybe trying a no-sparge.

For some reason my efficiency is low but very consistent (around 62%) so I've just been using more grain and I've been hitting all my volume and gravity targets.

On thing I should note is that it's been ~45 days from brew date and the beer does seem to be improving still. How long have your pliny batches (or your higher gravity beers in general) been taking before they taste optimal?

I'd have to say by day 45, I'm usually halfway through the keg! I don't know what you're doing for water but your mash process looks fine. Water, particularly sulfates and calcium content, can effect your mouthfeel and the bitterness that comes through. That's beyond my scope though. There's alot of chemistry guys on this site that can help you with water over in the brew science part of the forum.

I forgot to add, and I have no idea if this would change the body, but I do mash this beer for 90 minutes, which helps with conversion. So long as your consistent though, that's the most important thing...even if it's consistently in the low 60s.