Wine is eluding me

[kennywd]

Wine seems to be more temperamental than all the beers I have made. I have done two meads(first one was good not great), tried a apple cider, cheap welches grape juice, and a skeeter pee. Out of all of these I get almost the same off flavors. Bitter, and possibly Astringency... And of course alcoholic. But my tastes buds aren't as sensitive.

My theory is possible the waters ph.. Believe tap is 7.2-7.5. But thought that would only effect extracting tannins form grains and grape skins. My sanitizing is great... And all these recipes are simple sugars... Some I had sitting almost 6months to 1 1/2 years and still tastes just as bad.

This is more for gathering ideas and thoughts from everyone. Thank you.

 

[Goofynewfie]

are you adding yeast nutrients?
fermenting in the rate temperature range for your yeast?

 

[LBussy]

To build on what Goofy said - what yeasts and what temps? Those are the biggies. I find that brewers (I am also a brewer) generally miss the chance to use some really nice yeasts and default to "champagne yeast" (whatever that happens to be at the time) when making anything other than a beer. I've found that it's a lot easier to make crappy wine than it is to make crappy beer by choosing the wrong yeast.

Here is a recipe Arpolis shared with me for a basic Welch's wine:

I ferment 71b anywhere between 68*F - 73*F and I don't think it is hot. Now D47 at those temps vents out fusel alcohol which does taste hot.

My wenches recipe is simple as follows for 1 gallon.

4 11.5oz Welche's frozen fruit concentrate. (I like white grape peach but white grape should be great too)
Water to 1 gallon [added for completeness]
1tbs of black tea (I like earl grey, if you want a less bitter wine then you can reduce to 1 or 2 tsp) [I used 1 tsp which was not enough to balance, the wine was very "bright"]
1 tsp pectic enzyme
1 tsp yeast nutrient
1/2 tsp yeast energizer
Yeast

The context here was some issues I was having with off-flavors and my fermentation temps. The 71B (Lalvin 71B-1122) yeast ferments between 59° and 86° F which is a perfect range for a beginner wine maker to just let things do their thing and not worry too much. That ended up being important for me because I was getting off flavors from stressing my yeast.

(You will notice he typo'd and called this "Wenches" which is now the name as far as I'm concerned.)

This is an excellent wine to try out to get something easy and quick in the fermenter and test your process. The batch I just did was a starter for a batch of Skeeter Pee and I used a whole packet of 71B, rehydrated with GoFerm. Fermentation was a rolling boil (no foam thankfully) and was done in about three days.

So, I get your frustration. My advice is to make a proven easy recipe (this or another) and use the right yeast most importantly. I believe that will get you over the hump and you can go from there.

 

[DoctorCAD]

You are fermenting "crappy" juices to start with. (No insult to those of you that like Welches and such)

Try real wine juice, it will make all the difference.

 

[LBussy]

You are fermenting "crappy" juices to start with. (No insult to those of you that like Welches and such)

Try real wine juice, it will make all the difference.

If he is getting those off flavors with Welch's, using real grape must will only make more expensive crappy wine. It's not that I think Welch's makes excellent wine, but I can taste the difference when it is done well and the batch is < $10 (on sale).

If you are a wine maker the things that go into missing what he is experiencing may be second nature to you. As a brewer who makes wines I understand his plight I think and I had the same issues.

 

[Goofynewfie]

when you made your cider where did the apple juice come from? was it bottled, pressed, concentrate etc?

 

[WilliamSlayer]

(You will notice he typo'd and called this "Wenches" which is now the name as far as I'm concerned.)

That is absolutly OUTSTANDING!

Let it be so decreed!

Simply because of the new name, that will be my first brew in the new place when I get my pipeline re-established. ;-)

 

[kennywd]

are you adding yeast nutrients?
fermenting in the rate temperature range for your yeast?

To build on what Goofy said - what yeasts and what temps?

First two wines I used were "Cotes des blancs". Lavin Ec1118 for the last two I made. temps were keep around 65 degrees. I have a fermentation chamber.

when you made your cider where did the apple juice come from? was it bottled, pressed, concentrate etc?

It was an organic unfiltered Apple juice bottled from the grocery store and not a concentrate.

are you adding yeast nutrients?
fermenting in the rate temperature range for your yeast?

yes yeast nutrients and yeast energizer.

Also by the way, Thanks everyone for reading this.. I was surprised to see all the responses when I got on tonight. I appreciate all the advice. and glad to see others have had issues like this..

 

[Goofynewfie]

If you used the ec1118 for the cider I may have an idea. This yeast is known for "blowing" alot of the fruit flavor out of the airlock. It also is fast acting with a high alcohol tolerance so if you combine all that if may result in less apple flavor, stronger alcohol "flavor" and less sweetness. It could have gone to a gravity of .990 very easily in a few days. Your juice selection was a good one

 

[saramc]

kenny....
1. Did you stabilize with k-meta plus sorbate once these were degassed and clear...and then backsweeten?
2. Is your water softened, RO, etc?
3. How long do these batches sit on gross or fine lees before you rack?
4. You mention use of yeast energizer/nutrient being used--what brand, when and how much are you adding?
5. What was the O.G. of each batch you have issues with?
6. What are you using to clean and sanitize?
7. Are you adding tannins, acids?
8. Are you taking pH/TA readings?
9. It was 100% Welch's for the grape, organic apple, and the typical ReaLemon that you worked with?

If using grocery store juices, like grape or apple, they are usually already balanced in terms of acid-base, to ensure readiness for consumption. Juices like cranberry, pomegranate, cherry, citric fruit will of course need adjusting when making wine, but it seems you have perhaps just Welch's grape, apple and lemon to deal with. Original Skeeter Pee is pretty tried and true, though it can start to go down hill and change flavors around 9-12 months. It would be helpful if you shared recipes used along with notes, dates you did things, hydrometer readings, etc.

Same goes with mead...recipe/notes needed. But mead is known to need years to properly age, much more time needed when compared to wine.

And quality of the products used does factor in. Not saying you cannot make good wine from Welch's, etc....it is all in your definition of 'good'. And yes, I make a batch or two of Welch's Concord each year, wine plus Joe's Quick Grape Mead. A great base for mulling, or drinking as-is!

 

[kennywd]

kenny....
1. Did you stabilize with k-meta plus sorbate once these were degassed and clear...and then backsweeten?
2. Is your water softened, RO, etc?
3. How long do these batches sit on gross or fine lees before you rack?
4. You mention use of yeast energizer/nutrient being used--what brand, when and how much are you adding?
5. What was the O.G. of each batch you have issues with?
6. What are you using to clean and sanitize?
7. Are you adding tannins, acids?
8. Are you taking pH/TA readings?
9. It was 100% Welch's for the grape, organic apple, and the typical ReaLemon that you worked with?

1. Yes but only for my first mead.. Which I said came out pretty good but was dry I I did backsweaten.

2. Water is strait from tap.. Our water report suck around here. And plus ATM our water is bad (drought). But the wine, cider and the other meads were made before these issues.

3. No more that month max as long a the yeast is done. Most I racked quick an meads I racked a few times.

4.



Recommended amounts

5. 1.90+ but they were all that high even my good mead.

6. Starsan, idoraphor, and bleach. Most were idoraphor

7.i add tannins, not acids normally

8. I am not taking ph readings. Just cause the wife says I have enough equipment ATM.

9. Yes you are correct

Also in post recipes some time later.

 

[saramc]

Ok, going to go out on a limb here. Country wine(non-grape) is styled for backsweetening, it is the part that helps bring the fruit forward and masks acidity issues. So it would not be uncommon for it to be somewhat bitter/astringent if left dry. Did these batches ferment to 1.000 or less?

Skeeter Pee includes a step where you sorbate/k-meta and add like 8 cups of sugar. You didn't do that? Mead, is well mead....give it another three years. You either like it dry, or your palate just is not there yet.

BUT let's look at racking a bit deeper. Do you mean you only racked once, except the meads?

 

[kennywd]

Ok, going to go out on a limb here. Country wine(non-grape) is styled for backsweetening, it is the part that helps bring the fruit forward and masks acidity issues. So it would not be uncommon for it to be somewhat bitter/astringent if left dry. Did these batches ferment to 1.000 or less?

Skeeter Pee includes a step where you sorbate/k-meta and add like 8 cups of sugar. You didn't do that? Mead, is well mead....give it another three years. You either like it dry, or your palate just is not there yet.

BUT let's look at racking a bit deeper. Do you mean you only racked once, except the meads?

Your right I didn't back sweeten. And in fact that seems to be the common factor. And yes for the cheaper items I only racked once. But the meads at least 3 times over 6 months. Like I said my first mead was great. But I did back sweeten that one and not this second one. So I'll just let it age and age. My last bottle of the 1st mead is 3 yrs old and is great.

 

[saramc]

Your right I didn't back sweeten. And in fact that seems to be the common factor. And yes for the cheaper items I only racked once. But the meads at least 3 times over 6 months. Like I said my first mead was great. But I did back sweeten that one and not this second one. So I'll just let it age and age. My last bottle of the 1st mead is 3 yrs old and is great.

I thought that might have been it, lack of sugar on the backend. S'ok, perfect opportunity to keep a bottle of simple syrup mixed up & just sweeten each glass to taste. Any guests you share a bottle with will likely love the chance to craft their own glass. Just imagining the unsweetened SkeeterPee...ick, big pucker face.

 

[kennywd]

I thought that might have been it, lack of sugar on the backend. S'ok, perfect opportunity to keep a bottle of simple syrup mixed up & just sweeten each glass to taste. Any guests you share a bottle with will likely love the chance to craft their own glass. Just imagining the unsweetened SkeeterPee...ick, big pucker face.

Thanks for the help. I'll try that and see how it goes. Anyways would make it a higher gravity or adding in sugar over time in the fermentors help from having to back sweeten? Sometimes I rather avoid adding in sorbate.

 

[saramc]

Thanks for the help. I'll try that and see how it goes. Anyways would make it a higher gravity or adding in sugar over time in the fermentors help from having to back sweeten? Sometimes I rather avoid adding in sorbate.

It is really easier to just ferment dry, crafting the ACV you desire paired with an appropriate yeast, and stabilizing with sorbate and k-meta once clear, degassed, lees free...and then backsweeten. You can play with choosing a yeast based on alcohol toxicity and then figuring out what OG you will need, assuming yeast die off due to alcohol toxicity and you get a natural residual sugar. The thing is the tolerance range is just a range, not a guarantee that yeast will die off at 12-14%, etc. But definitely fun once you get a few done. You can also pasteurize to kill the yeast, skip sorbate. Just a personal choice.

For OG of 1.100 or higher I actually step feed the sugar. Start around 1.080 and when SG drops by 0.020 feed it more sugar. This makes for a happier yeast too.