Want to respond to feedback on my entry

[ignatiusvienna]

Hey folks!

I just submitted my first entry to a homebrew competition and got my results back. Got a score of 25, which made me happy and the sections I lost points on I wanted to get some feedback on, hopefully change it!

It was a pilsner recipe based on jkarp's recipe:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/noble-pils-224395/#post2657115

Mine was as follows:

2 lbs Beligum Pilsner Grain
5 lb Briess Light Pilsen DME
2 lb Bohemian Floor Malt
Irish Moss
Yeast Nutrient
WLP 800 yeast
Hallertauer, Hersbrucker, Saaz, Spalt and Tettnanger Hops:

Steep grain at 150 degrees for 30 min. bring to boil and add extract.
Hops: .33 oz of @ at 60 min, 15 min, 1 min, and 0 min (dry hop in primary)
Irish moss and yeast nutrient at 15 mins remaining

Primary ferment 5 days. Transfer to secondary
3 weeks lager at 31 degrees
Bottle at least 3 weeks.


I loved it and submitted it. I made it 01/2013. Submitted 03/15/13.



One judge noted that it had a slightly "musty" finish and felt it may have been somewhat "stale". Also felt that the "aromas should be more prominent". Overall "good version and enjoyable"

The other judge was less impressed. Noted that there was a "slight oxidized carboard taste", "missing some bittering hops", "hop flavor low".

I want to know what to generally look for to improve.

Any thoughts?

 

[PistolsAtDawn]

Welcome to the forum!

You're going to get a myriad of opinions on many things, but here's my take (and a few questions):

I don't have any lagering ability just yet as I live in a hot place and can't afford / don't have space for a chest freezer. So perhaps my read on this is too ale-centric. Just a disclaimer.

I can't see anything that would warrant using a secondary fermenter. You weren't adding fruit, or oak chips or chocolate or anything that might make me think, "Oh, of course that's the reason for a secondary."

5 days is pretty speedy for primary fermentation. Did you take a gravity reading before you transferred? You probably should let the yeasties do the bulk of their work before transferring if you're dead-set on using a secondary.

You may have oxidized the beer (splashed it around and introduced oxygen) during the transfer to the secondary or during bottling. It's easy to do during either step, so just be careful with that.

Were the bottles stored at room temperature in a dark place for those three weeks? Light stales beer PDQ.

Without knowing more about your equipment and process, I think that's all I have to offer for now.

 

[LLBeanJ]

Apparently, oxidation is a problem based on both judges' comments (musty, oxidized cardboard taste), so that would be the first thing to work on. Oxidation usually occurs from poor handling after fermentation has taken place, usually when transferring to another vessel. Examine your racking process from primary to secondary to bottling bucket/keg. If you usually use a secondary, consider eliminating it and doing a primary only. When racking, don't allow the beer to splash. I wouldn't even bother with recipe issues until process flaws have been identified and eliminated.

 

[ignatiusvienna]

My gear is basic glass carboys and siphon rack. I was keeping the secondary in a room with a regular temp of about 34 degrees.

Reflecting on it, I do not recall why I only had the primary for 5 days. Could this have had an effect?

I am usually careful about not splashing too much from primary to secondary and then to bottling bucket. Perhaps I have to be much more careful.

I know the technical issues are likely the cause, and should focus there. Asides from books (which I read a ton of) can anyone recommend good videos on youtube or something? Just in case I'm way off in my process.

Any comments on the recipe?

 

[LLBeanJ]

Yes, be more careful with racking. Get an autosiphon if you don't have one. Also, what size is the carboy you're using for secondary? Too much headspace in the secondary vessel could allow oxidation. Usually, a 5 gallon carboy would be used for secondary and 6 or 6.5 for primary. Is that what you are using? Did the beer slosh much in the carboy as you moved it into your lagering chamber?

I noticed the recipe says to dry hop in primary then transfer to secondary at 5 days into fermentation. Maybe this is typical, but doesn't sound right to me. I could see dry hopping in primary after a couple of weeks, then bottling/kegging from there, but if I was determined to use a secondary at all, I'd do my dry hopping then. In this case, since you are using secondary to lager, I think I would've dry hopped it there near the end of the lager.

As far as critiquing the recipe, it looks okay. Did you use the same amount of hops/IBUs as the original recipe? If so, maybe the off-flavors detracted from the bitterness/flavor of the hops. Just grasping at straws here.

 

[14thstreet]

First of all, would you happen to still have the beer in question and upon drinking it, would you agree with the comments? Sometimes bottles sent to competitions are badly handled (or not ideally) and sometimes individual bottles don't fairly represent the batch as a whole.

Looks like you did a partial mash for 30 minutes. Is it possible you left some unconverted starch or some husks in the boil if not strained? This could be the "stale" the judge mentioned.

 

[mjohnson]

also, can old extract taste oxidized?

 

[smizak]

Your recipe definitely seems under-hopped. I'm a BJCP judge, and I can tell you that a 2 month old homebrewed light lager is probably starting to turn, so that is where the oxidation comments are from. Enter it fresh next time, right after it's carbed and settled in the fridge for a week or so.

Dry hopping with noble hops can tend to have a grassy, vegetal effect. I don't recommend it. Maybe that is where the "musty" smell is from.

Invest in some brewing software, I like Beersmith, enter your recipe and it will compare all aspects of it with the style guidlines, IBU, SRM, ABV, etc.....

 

[ignatiusvienna]

First of all, would you happen to still have the beer in question and upon drinking it, would you agree with the comments? Sometimes bottles sent to competitions are badly handled (or not ideally) and sometimes individual bottles don't fairly represent the batch as a whole.

Looks like you did a partial mash for 30 minutes. Is it possible you left some unconverted starch or some husks in the boil if not strained? This could be the "stale" the judge mentioned.

I drank it recently. Still love it. Hopefully the bottle in question was poor. More likely, my pallet is not refined enough to detect the issues.

For the grains, I used grain bags, then poured hot water over them as I removed them. I don't think I left anything behind.

Your recipe definitely seems under-hopped. I'm a BJCP judge, and I can tell you that a 2 month old homebrewed light lager is probably starting to turn, so that is where the oxidation comments are from. Enter it fresh next time, right after it's carbed and settled in the fridge for a week or so.

Dry hopping with noble hops can tend to have a grassy, vegetal effect. I don't recommend it. Maybe that is where the "musty" smell is from.

Invest in some brewing software, I like Beersmith, enter your recipe and it will compare all aspects of it with the style guidlines, IBU, SRM, ABV, etc.....

I appreciate it. I guess I was thinking that it would improve over time. If I submit a light lager again I will make it fresh fresh.

With thinking about dry hopping, what would you use instead of noble hops?

 

[mjohnson]

I'm not a BJCP judge. But in my experience, a light beer, properly stored, is just fine after two months. Sometimes better. If you're storing them at 90F or something, it might speed aging. But as a general rule, I'd think that should be fine.

I've dry-hopped with modest amounts of Saaz and had good results. No musty or vegetal flavors/aromas at all. I'm not sure about the other noble varieties.

I wonder more about the fermentation schedule and packaging process. Could you post your temps? Seems that 5 days for a lager yeast is a bit fast. Was it attenuated fully? Did you bottle carbonate?

 

[ignatiusvienna]

5 days at 70 degrees. switched to secondary for 3 weeks at 31 degrees.

bottle carbonated. 3/4 cup corn sugar. cellar temp of about 60 degrees.

 

[CastleHollow]

If you fermented WLP800 at 70, the "mustiness" is almost certainly due to an off-flavor from the yeast.

 

[AnOldUR]

5 days at 70 degrees.

From White Labs:

WLP800 Pilsner Lager Yeast

Optimum Ferment Temp.
50-55°F (10-13°C)

 

[joelrapp]

Yeah I would steer away from the idea that it is from splashing while racking. You made a Pilsner and they aren't supposed to be fermented warm. 5 days in a primary is way too fast for the style in my opinion. My initial thought reading through the thread is that it stems directly from the fermentation temperature and not following a lager fermentation schedule. Take it for what its worth.

 

[mjohnson]

I think your fermentation temps are the likely culprit. If you're able, it'd be interesting to re-do the brew and pitch at 45, let it rise naturally to 55, then do a rest at 70 once the fermentation is almost complete.

Still, a 25 isn't too bad and if you enjoy it, so much the better.

One last thing, how much yeast did you use? Lager yeast at low temps tend to need more cells for clean fermentation. If you're able, make a big starter!

Cheers!

 

[LLBeanJ]

Based on this late-breaking development (i.e., ferm temp), I would agree with the others that the likely cause of your off flavor is not with oxidation, but rather fermenting with lager yeast at ale temps.

 

[Pratzie]

maybe try for some fresher hops. Seems they might have been expecting more

 

[ignatiusvienna]

Thanks everybody!