Witbier: how much acid?

[tadkays]

I am brewing this next weekend. I started with .25 lb Acidulated, but after drinking some Hoegaarden, I could go up to a half pound or more I think.

6# Pils Belgium
2# flaked Wheat
2# white wheat
1# flaked oats
4-8oz acidulated (like the sourness)
8oz Rice hulls

.5oz coriander (not 8!)
1oz Orange Peel

2oz Saaz
WL0400 yeast

Mash 152
Batch Sparge
Boil 90

Advise?

Cheers!

 

[billl]

The tartness in a wit comes from the yeast, not acid. Just use whatever you need to adjust the mash ph and let the yeast do its thing.

 

[stpug]

I just made a wit and have yet to taste it so this is totally unsubstantiated assistance ....

I used enough acid malt to balance the ph of the mash, which actually turned out to be 6 oz (a little more than I had hoped for but we'll see when I taste this sucker!). I had 5lb pils, 4lb unmalted wheat, 0.5lb oats, 6 oz acid malt, but I ended up doing a cereal mash with the raw wheat.

More importantly, I see you have listed 8 OUNCES of coriander. Hopefully that's a mistake and you only mean 0.8 oz coriander - otherwise you're in for a different kind of wit . Also, I did 0.5 oz bitter orange peel and my impression of the wort was that I could have used more so 1 oz might be okay. Plus I did a little fresh chopped ginger. I was aiming for an Allagash White profile - that stuff rocks!

Since yeast was mentioned, I ended up using brewferm blanche ale. Again, I have yet to taste so we'll see how it turns out.

Edit: I'll probably end up pulling a sample this evening to check gravity and will give an update on my impressions.

 

[stpug]

Okay, so you inspired me to sample my 4 day old wit (still in primary) but I needed to because I expect it to be ready for company in 14 days and wanted to see it's progression.

I used a Bru'n water and added enough acid malt to match a hoegaarden water profile, which turned out to be 6 ounces, but was aiming to create an Allagash White clone. My initial impression of the sample was more tart/sour than I remember allagash - maybe 4 oz would have been enough - but upon reading the BJCP witbier description I felt like the tart/sour aspect matched the description fairly well. Of course, this beer is only 4 days old with no carbonic acid yet

I read a post somewhere along my internet travels (maybe from Denny, but I could be wrong) that bitter orange peel actually provides the "herbal" aspect to the beer while the coriander provides the "citrus" aspect - counter-intuitive to what I had been thinking. However, after sampling both 'spice' additions I can definitely see how this could be true - I did not get much citrus from the bitter orange peel when I sample a dry piece, it was much more bitter and (dull) herbal, while the fresh cracked coriander was citric in character.

I used 0.5 oz dried bitter orange peel (flameout with 15 minute steep). I feel like this amount could have gone up a fair amount; maybe double (somewhere from 0.75-1 oz) would have been fine. The herbal aspect to the beer was subtle. I don't know, maybe the carbonation will make it "POP!" but I highly doubt it.

I used 0.25 oz indian coriander, freshly smashed under a rolling pin (flameout with 15 minute steep). Again, I feel like this could have gone up a fair amount; maybe double again (somewhere from 0.4-0.5 oz). The citrus aspect is lacking as compared to Allagash White. In most ways it's just non-existent. I'm considering a small addition of fresh cracked coriander when I keg this to "kick it up a notch."

Last, I used 0.2 oz of fresh chopped ginger (flameout with 15 minute steep). This comes through very subtly and is a nice addition. I think if the citrus aspect was notched up then the ginger would take a step back and be SUPER subtle which would be perfect.

Otherwise, a super-cloudy, very straw color, tart and gently spiced wit beer is what I've accomplished. All-in-all, a success at 4 days old. I'll sample again at kegging time and decide at that point if I want to do a small addition of cracked coriander (I'm thinking I will).

 

[tadkays]

St. Pug,
Thanks for sharing the great tips and information! This will be the 15th batch and 9th type of brew since I started in January on a cheap aluminum turkey fryer. I have upgraded all my equipment since then and am enjoying the hobby. It is great to learn about your experience with this type of beer and the coriander, bitter orange peel, and even the possibility of some ginger, which I am a fan of when juicing fruit & veggies. I thought of some chamomile also, but may go the ginger route. I will heed your advice and keep the acidulated probably at 4-6 oz and may cut the coriander a bit. I may throw in some fresh orange zest in the boil as well for good measure.

I am looking forward to brewing a lighter summer beer next weekend with some friends! Thanks again for your advice.
-Tad

 

[stpug]

Not a problem, it was my pleasure (literally ). I have found that when attempting to clone a beer it may take several iterations to dial it in as you rarely hit the nail on the head the first shot. Good luck and have some fun with your brewday!!

 

[stpug]

Just an update: I kegged today and got a super small sample to check brix and taste. The tart aspect seems to have mellowed (which I'm fine with) but the overall traditional spice additions were much too mellow for me. I ended up steeping 0.3 oz bitter orange peel and 0.2 oz cracked indian coriander in about 1/3 cup vodka for 2 days (it smelled like Gran Marnier), and then added all of this to the keg in a 1 gallon paint strainer tied with floss to the keg handle. I took a 6 oz sample out after ensuring a thorough mixture of the steeped spices and it really gave a good boost to the overall profile - it's still very mellow but at least I can sense it now. I imagine this will build over the next several days so I'll keep checking and when it hits where I want it then I'll pull the bag of spices so it doesn't go overboard. Additionally, I (so far) have found the brewferm blanche ale wit yeast to be too tame for what I wanted; I was hoping to get a little belgian spicy notes but so far I don't pick up on much yeast character at all. I even fermented at 70F with this yeast in hopes of encouraging some belgiany characteristics but so far it's really tame.

Edit: I also should have noted that the tartness has mellowed at bit since my first sample. I'm sure co2 will bring some of this tart/bite back but my point is that I do not think that 6 oz was too much for my grainbill (9.5 lbs; pilsen/rawWheat/oats); raw wheat was cereal mashed.

 

[stpug]

Another update: Got a good sample today after three days of 20psi. It's got moderate-high carbonation after only three days and the carbonic acid has definitely added some tart back (this is a good thing). The carbonation has also helped bring out the body and silkiness of this beer. The spicing has picked up a lot since I kegged a few days ago - it's actually quite nice with some really great aromatics. I'm debating if there is a "right time" to pull the spice bag from the keg, and if so then that is . Like I suspected, the ginger has stepped back to the orange/coriander and it's a nice balance. I wish the Brewferm Blanche had some gentle clove phenols to it as I think that would have put me close to what I was trying to achieve (Allagash White). Next time I'll be trying a different yeast (maybe 3944, WLP400, WLP351, or the dregs from an allagash white if I can snag one). Overall, I would say this is one of the top wit beers I've ever had but I only have half a dozen to compare with.

 

[tadkays]

St. Pug, thanks for the updates. It sounds like you brewed a winner there! I am 5 days in primary now and took a wine thief sample last night and hit the anticipated FG of 1.012 from an OG of 1.051, so I had 80% efficiency instead of 70% and have a 6% wit instead of a 5%. Anyway, it looks just like orange juice - definitely the lightest brew yet. The taste is light bland, but it's still early on in the process. At 15 mins boil remaining, I threw in 1 oz each of dried bitter orange peel and cracked coriander (which smells awesome btw!). I might do some steeping / additions of some more coriander and some tangerine peel and maybe a few cloves when I let this mellow out in secondary a while before bottling.

I used the WLP400 and it was by far the shortest "active" fermentation period I have seen yet. We pitched Friday night around midnight, saw some airlock action about 16 hours after that, then it had pretty much ceased 24 hours after that.

It is my 15th batch and 10th different BJCP style and it will be great for summer drinking! -Tad

 

[stpug]

It's funny you mention your attenuation was high (80%). I also had higher attenuation than expected (77%) instead of the average 73%. Mine finished quite a bit lower (1.010) than beersmith expected (1.014). In my case this was probably a good thing since I missed my OG by 7 points due to a mildly messed up cereal mash (poor grind on the raw wheat).

Next time I'll definitely up my spice amounts during the boil, and probably put them in at 5-10 minutes instead of flameout like I did this time. If you end up putting clove in for steeping I'd be interested in how that works out. I seem to recall reading that "less is more" when it comes to actual clove spice in beers, but I might be mixing that up with some other spice.

I'm interested in your aroma/flavor impressions of WLP400... do you pick up on any phenols and/or spice notes? I would have to say that brewferm blanche is very tame in this department; too tame IMHO. I've only had two decent samples of my wit so far but I have yet to really pick up on any unique yeast characteristics. You definitely had a fast fermentation. Do you have a huge krausen left floating on top in your primary?

....and I totally agree. This will be a great summer drinker (or July drinker )

 

[tadkays]

Racked secondary, sitting on tangerine peel, will bottle after 7 days.