St Bernardus bottle cultured yeast for ABT 12 attempt

[sid_marx]

Stan Hieronymus states in BLAM that St Bernardus utilizes a second yeast for bottle conditioning.

After culturing from a bottle of Pater 6 I suspect that the yeast used to carbonate the 33cl bottles, which again according to BLAM are bottled at the brewery (unlike the 75cl which are bottled offsite) is in fact the primary strain.

I recently used this yeast to ferment a quad based closely on the westvleteren pious new world recipe and so far the test batch tastes and smells much more like St Bernardus ABT 12 than other beers I've brewed to the same recipe using Wyeast 3787 (Westmalle).

I'd be interested to know whether others have used bottle cultured St Bernardus and what the results were like.

 

[jaapie]

Hi Sid Marx, I am going to do a similar test. I will let you know what happens. Jasper

 

[Johnnyhitch1]

Interested to hear what comes from this. Was planning on brewing a big quad to age in a barrel for next winter and just cultured some bernardus. Subd

 

[jaapie]

ok, so I have three cultures growing, the Prior, the Pater, and the tripel. Since they came from a bottle, I dumped them in some media and have them shaking at 30 C to revive the dregs. If I look at them under the microscope, the strains all look identical cell-wise. This is on a 200000 dollar microscope, so I have a good view what is going on. Not just cell-shape but also inner-cell contrast. Some yeasts have lots of intracellular structures that are easily visible, some are almost transparent. These fall in the latter category. I would find it surprising that this brewery would bottle with another strain, especially when we are talking about a lighter beer like Pater that would obviously totally change character if some other yeast is doing its thing when its bottle conditioning. To be continued.

 

[mack25]

Very interested in this too, because I've been saving a bottle of this to culture the yeast myself.

 

[jaapie]

Quick bump, preliminary analysis of colonies seems to indicate that Prior and Pater are the same (are visually similar) and that Tripel stands out. Tripel grew a little faster it seems, but to be sure Ill wait until after the weekend to make definite conclusions. I also grew up Westvleteren from the blonde, and the cells are kind of elongated. I will post pictures of the cells, and of the colonies, next week.

 

[jaapie]

Ok as promised some info on the cultures. The St. Bernardus tripel I want to do again because it looks kind of bacterial - I could not find any normal yeast. The culture never really took off, I will give it one more shot. The St. Bernardus Prior colony can be found here and a micrograph of the cells here; the St. Bernardus Pater colony can be found here and the cells here. The "Westvleteren Blond" (So actually the westmalle strain) can be found here. Sorry if the contrast is a little shoddy I did not subtract any background. Obviously the cells are different between the westmalle and the St. B strains - I do not dare to go any further. I am going to ferment some, and as Sid Marx pointed out, St. B has a very specific flavor/aroma. I would be really surprised if they decided to bottle ferment their lighter (Pater) beer with another strain, but who knows. To be continued.

 

[jaapie]

Yes its me again trying to keep this going. This weekend a new startup brewery in the DC area is going to brew a pilot batch this weekend (Belgian Pale Ale) and ferment with the St. Bernardus Pater strain. I grew up a 2L culture whilst shaking and cell numbers are very high. I could not smell the typical smell when it grew aerobically, but I hope it will be clear soon what is going on.

 

[sid_marx]

Hi Jasper,

I'm really pleased that someone else is working on this and am really interested to hear more about your results - especially the pilot batch of Belgian Pale Ale.

I cracked my first bottle of quad from the 5 gallon batch made with the pater 6 cultured yeast a couple of days ago.

I really like the flavour of this beer. In fact I've brewed similar recipes using Westmalle, Chimay and Unibroue yeasts and I like this more at just 3 weeks in the bottle than any of the others I've done. Which is weird since the others were still quite green at 3 weeks.

Can post the recipe if anyone is interested. It's not a clone of St Bernardus ABT 12 but I think that it has the hallmarks of the yeast if not the base.

 

[BuenaCerveza]

I really appreciate your work on this Jasper. I'm really interested in yeast and trying to learn as much as possible, and am obsessed with some of the Trappist ales and St. B ABT 12.

Thanks for keeping us posted (as well as your blog)!

 

[rayfound]

I have a bottle of abt12... I may have to see if I can bring the yeast to life and start a Bernardus culture. I'm planning a beer in their following - base malt, sugar, and a black malt for aging. This would obviously be the right thing to use for yeast...

 

[jaapie]

I have a bottle of abt12... I may have to see if I can bring the yeast to life and start a Bernardus culture. I'm planning a beer in their following - base malt, sugar, and a black malt for aging. This would obviously be the right thing to use for yeast...

Well that is the thing we are trying to figure out.

 

[rayfound]

Well that is the thing we are trying to figure out.

Yeah... my comment added very little value.

Hopefully I can report back next week with some results of my own - though I don't have a microscope, so I will be going based on the "Does it look like yeast?" criteria.

 

[jaapie]

Did not mean it in a bad way. Let us know how it smells when it ferments as well.

 

[rayfound]

Did not mean it in a bad way. Let us know how it smells when it ferments as well.

Not good so far. Never cultured dregs before, but so far, it still smells like wort, not yeasty-fermentation/starter smell.

Can't help but assume I've got dead/pasteurized dregs.

 

[jaapie]

OK, I have the St. Bernardus Tripel yeast now as well. Similar as the other two (Prior and Pater). Emailed the brewery twice (in Dutch) but got no reply. The DC brewery decided to go for the Leuven strain instead of my yeast prop of the Pater strain, kind of a bummer, but they promised that they will use the strain soon. I will start a fermentation soon myself, after the craft brewers conference this week. I'll keep you posted on what happens.

 

[jaapie]

OK, we brewed a a homebrew batch using the St. Bernardus Pater strain, side by side with Schelde yeast, this Sunday. The beer is a Belgian Pale for a future collaboration between Lost Rhino brewing co and Hellbender Brewing Co. We are trying different yeasts and I am curious what this one will do. I will keep you guys posted on the taste and comparison to the Pater itself.

 

[kaz4121]

The St. Bernardus yeast is likely a Westmalle decedent, since Westvleteren used to contract brew through St. B's.

One thing to consider is the fermentation temperatures. IIRC, Brew Like A Monk claims three trappist breweries use the Westmalle Yeast - the key is that they all have a different fermentation regimen.

 

[jaapie]

@kaz4121 - I totally agree, but I can only do one temp right now. Brew like a monk also states they use a different yeast for botteling at St. B, and that is what we are trying to figure out. I cannot imagine they bottle with another strain for a not so heavy beer as the Pater, but who knows. The phenolics of the St. Bernardus strain is very different and hopefully will stand out.

 

[sicklesr]

Do you know if the US release of the Westy 12's were bottle condiditoned and non-pasturized?

My brother was lucky enough to grab a brick, and after we sampled one, he gave me a bottle to have for myself. It's still sitting in cellar conditions... Would I be able to culture dregs from this?

 

[kaz4121]

@kaz4121 - I totally agree, but I can only do one temp right now. Brew like a monk also states they use a different yeast for botteling at St. B, and that is what we are trying to figure out. I cannot imagine they bottle with another strain for a not so heavy beer as the Pater, but who knows. The phenolics of the St. Bernardus strain is very different and hopefully will stand out.

Makes sense to me.

 

[jaapie]

Do you know if the US release of the Westy 12's were bottle condiditoned and non-pasturized?

My brother was lucky enough to grab a brick, and after we sampled one, he gave me a bottle to have for myself. It's still sitting in cellar conditions... Would I be able to culture dregs from this?

Ok - here it gets a little murky. I know that BLAM states that Achel, Westvleteren and Westmalle all use the Westmalle strain. I cultured the Achel blond and Westvleteren blond, and they look vastly different under the microscope. Westvleteren blond cells are somewhat elongated, and the Achel blond cells are much more round, normal Sacch. looking. I have no westmalle to compare it to. So yes you will get something out of it, but what it is, I do not know, I do not know if either one of them use a different bottling yeast or not. Westmalle doesnt I believe.

 

[sicklesr]

Cool. Good info to know.

I'm not too concerned about getting the same exact beer as the Westy... I'd just like to use a true Trappist yeast. I plan on breaking out the Westy in the next few weeks. I'll follow up back here if I could get a starter out of it.

 

[jaapie]

OK, I have a blonde crash cooling right now with the St. Bernardus yeast. This was the prior strain. It fermented fast (at room temp) from ~1.070 to 1.012 in a few days. The yeast falls out really slow, and it definitely has the typical aromatics. Another trial with the Pater did not ferment as well, might have been just an unfortunate isolate. It needs some more time but is promising. Slight sulfur, a sort of wild note to it. To be continued.

 

[jaapie]

Ok, the brewery I moonlight in decided to brew their belgian beers (a brown, sort of a dubbel, but not 100% to style, and a blonde) with the St. Bernardus yeast because they were impressed with the profile. Very phenolic (fermented at ~75F), and it has this characteristic St. B smell to it. I actually like it over the St. B. prior (where the yeast was from). All in all a success, and it comes very close.

 

[sicklesr]

Where did they get the starter from? Was it bottle cultured or is there some sort of commercially availible yest?

I can't stop brewing Belgians.

 

[jaapie]

330ml bottle St. Bernardus Prior

 

[sicklesr]

330ml bottle St. Bernardus Prior

Thanks Jaapie. I'll be trying this with the westy 12. Won't be for a few weeks but I'll swing back around and let you all know what's going on!

 

[BuffaloBeer1]

So if I am reading this correctly, the best chance I have for brewing a clone or something similar to the St. B 12 is to culture yeast from the Prior. Is that correct?

If so, am I better off taking the dregs from a few bottles, or can I get enough for a 5 gal batch from just one bottle? I've never cultured yeast before; it the next thing for me to try in my learning the brew process.

 

[sid_marx]

BuffaloBeer1, I can't speak for using Prior, I stepped up a culture from Pater 6. The reason I used the Pater is that it has the lowest abv of the St Bernardus beers - but to be honest I think all the St Bernardus beers utilise the same strain.
I've since used the yeast in 2 quads and a tripel trying to get as close to the St Bernardus ABT 12 and Tripel as possible.
I've been very happy with the results. I drink the St Bernardus ABT12 & tripels fairly regularly and I'm 95% sure that the yeast I have is the yeast found in all 33cl bottles of St Bernardus.
You won't get enough healthy yeast for a batch without stepping up to a good starter. There's a good how to article here. There's also a good podcast from Jamil available for download on bottle harvesting here.
Good luck!

 

[sid_marx]

BTW I've had between 85-86% apparent attenuation using the bottle culture in high gravity beers, starting fermentation around 16-18c and finishing 28-32c.

 

[BuffaloBeer1]

BuffaloBeer1, I can't speak for using Prior, I stepped up a culture from Pater 6. The reason I used the Pater is that it has the lowest abv of the St Bernardus beers - but to be honest I think all the St Bernardus beers utilise the same strain.
I've since used the yeast in 2 quads and a tripel trying to get as close to the St Bernardus ABT 12 and Tripel as possible.
I've been very happy with the results. I drink the St Bernardus ABT12 & tripels fairly regularly and I'm 95% sure that the yeast I have is the yeast found in all 33cl bottles of St Bernardus.
You won't get enough healthy yeast for a batch without stepping up to a good starter. There's a good how to article here. There's also a good podcast from Jamil available for download on bottle harvesting here.
Good luck!

Thanks for the input. I'm planning on getting to this at the end of the summer while its still warm enough to push the fermentation temps for the Belgians. Are you willing to share the recipe you have found the most success with?

 

[sid_marx]

Thanks for the input. I'm planning on getting to this at the end of the summer while its still warm enough to push the fermentation temps for the Belgians. Are you willing to share the recipe you have found the most success with?

Sure, happy to share my recipe... in metric I'm afraid.

For 19 litres

Pilsner malt 8500g
Torrified wheat 500g
Biscuit malt 400g
Caramunich II malt 400g
Aromatic malt 100g
Special B malt 100g
Carafa III malt 70g
800g Dark Belgian candi syrup
Step mash 60 minutes @ 60c, 45 minutes @ 65c
70 minute boil
12g chinook 9.6 Alpha Acid for 70 minutes
10g chinook for 20 minutes
1086 Original gravity
Pitched yeast from 4 litre starter into 16c, well aerated wort
Raised to 32c over 10 days
1011 terminal gravity
Bottled after 25 days to 3 volumes of CO2, 9.85 ABV

The key to making good trappist ale in my opinion is good yeast management... technically St Bernardus isn't Trappist, but as far as I'm concerned in spirit it's as Trappist as they come. And really, in true Trappist tradition you could probably make this beer with just Pilsner malt (no specialties) and a bit more dark candi... but I haven't tested that yet.

Disclaimer: I use an unconventional hop for this recipe because I don't think that the hop flavour/aroma character is particularly material to the finished product. Hops is well in the background and is there for bitterness primarily.

 

[BuffaloBeer1]

Thank you. Metric is no problem at all, especially when you can find converters on line quickly. If I end up brewing this recipe or something similar, I'll post my results with a focus on the yeast. Although the annoying part is having to wait to get the true results. Thanks again. Cheers.

 

[Tropidolaemus]

Brewing is hard on the impatient!
I am currently stepping up yeast from a Rochefort 6. Last time I used the 10 and cultured to agar. That resulted in a single colony of yeast on the plate! I was able to step that up and I mixed it with WLP500 for a batch of a Blonde Ale. The Rochefort yeast flavor was definitely dominant. I am hoping to step the yeast up enough for a full batch this time. I am going to try a Rochefort 10 clone. I have done it a a partial mash in the past with good results. This time I'll be doing all grain. We'll see how it turns out this time!

 

[rockdemon]

Really interresting to hear that you actually can get good yeast from bernardus. I was there 3 weeks ago and asked and they said they use another yeast for bottling to keep the st. sixtus secret. The yeast was cultured at a univeristy in brussels or something like that. They were quite cocky about that they still use the same yeast but westy use westmalle.
Ive always thought that prior 8 is the best dark beer in the world so to be able to get that yeast woule be totally awesome. Its been awhile since someone posted in this thread but have you gotten good results harvesting? I got a bunch of .75L bottles of tripel, prior and abt but no pater. I didnt even think of harvesting until now... Even though they use another yeast for bottle refermentation you could probably get some of their esters buy harvesting i guiess...

 

[jaapie]

Really interresting to hear that you actually can get good yeast from bernardus. I was there 3 weeks ago and asked and they said they use another yeast for bottling to keep the st. sixtus secret. The yeast was cultured at a univeristy in brussels or something like that. They were quite cocky about that they still use the same yeast but westy use westmalle.
Ive always thought that prior 8 is the best dark beer in the world so to be able to get that yeast woule be totally awesome. Its been awhile since someone posted in this thread but have you gotten good results harvesting? I got a bunch of .75L bottles of tripel, prior and abt but no pater. I didnt even think of harvesting until now... Even though they use another yeast for bottle refermentation you could probably get some of their esters buy harvesting i guiess...

It works, you can get it from the bottle. It might be a different strain than their normal work horse if that is what they state, but it produces great beer. I tried to email them several times, but never heard anything back. Do they filter their beer before packaging?

 

[rockdemon]

Cant really remember. The other breweries i visited filtered their beer. But thosr beer are clear, st bernardus tripel is cloudy so i assume they dont filter them...


Sent from my iPhone using Home Brew

 

[rockdemon]

It works, you can get it from the bottle. It might be a different strain than their normal work horse if that is what they state, but it produces great beer. I tried to email them several times, but never heard anything back. Do they filter their beer before packaging?

2 days ago i took the bottom stuff from one .75L tripel and one .75l prior and added it to a 2 cup starter with 1030 gravity. No activity yet but we´ll see what happens. Ill add more wort in a day or two.

 

[rockdemon]

Sure, happy to share my recipe... in metric I'm afraid.

For 19 litres

Pilsner malt 8500g
Torrified wheat 500g
Biscuit malt 400g
Caramunich II malt 400g
Aromatic malt 100g
Special B malt 100g
Carafa III malt 70g
800g Dark Belgian candi syrup
Step mash 60 minutes @ 60c, 45 minutes @ 65c
70 minute boil
12g chinook 9.6 Alpha Acid for 70 minutes
10g chinook for 20 minutes
1086 Original gravity
Pitched yeast from 4 litre starter into 16c, well aerated wort
Raised to 32c over 10 days
1011 terminal gravity
Bottled after 25 days to 3 volumes of CO2, 9.85 ABV

The key to making good trappist ale in my opinion is good yeast management... technically St Bernardus isn't Trappist, but as far as I'm concerned in spirit it's as Trappist as they come. And really, in true Trappist tradition you could probably make this beer with just Pilsner malt (no specialties) and a bit more dark candi... but I haven't tested that yet.

Disclaimer: I use an unconventional hop for this recipe because I don't think that the hop flavour/aroma character is particularly material to the finished product. Hops is well in the background and is there for bitterness primarily.

I might give this recipe i try if i can get enough yeast. fermenting at 32 degrees? guess youre skipping secondary with this one?