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I bet it will... The more you make the better they'll be..
The original Lager thread.. Everything you ever wanted to know or ask
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Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:
I just ordered my ingredients. Went with wlp838 yeast. Will be making the starter later in the week.
TD
TD
OP
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I have a dark lager that I brewed recently, but it wasn't dark enough. I'd like to add some extra carafa, but without the flavor. My question is, should I ass more right at the end of the mash? Will I get the color I need without the added flavor?
See that all depends on how much you need your brew assistant. I find if I ass right at the beginning, my assistant become lightheaded and passes out leaving me to do the work; however, if I ass towards the end we can keep working together and then I get a good laugh watching him pass out, but after the heavy lifting is over. Really I have no clue about the actual answer, just couldn't help myself with a good ass autocorrect. Cheers!
zeg
Well-Known Member
Earlier this year, I brewed a Bock and realized its color was lighter than I wanted. I had some old, probably stale, chocolate malt on hand. I wanted to avoid picking up any of the roast malt flavor, so I cold-steeped some of this overnight (just add the crushed malt to a few cups of cold water). When that was done, I boiled it briefly to sterilize and added it to the fermentor either just before or soon after pitching.
This seems to have worked. The beer is not yet finished, but the samples I took didn't have any of the chocolate malt character. I imagine this would be your best shot, though I don't know how effectively the cold steeping actually worked. I only used something like a quarter pound of chocolate malt, so it may be that it would not have given an appreciable contribution in any case.
This seems to have worked. The beer is not yet finished, but the samples I took didn't have any of the chocolate malt character. I imagine this would be your best shot, though I don't know how effectively the cold steeping actually worked. I only used something like a quarter pound of chocolate malt, so it may be that it would not have given an appreciable contribution in any case.
StoneHands
Well-Known Member
I've run into this with a dunkel I've made in the past. The first stab I took at it, the flavor was spot on, but it was just a tad light. The second stab, I used a darker carafa special, and the flavor changed, but the color was spot on. The next time, I think I'll go back to the original recipe and change the percentages on the grain. I think what you're proposing would work, you'd get less of a flavor addition from a grain addition at the end of the mash.
I think it's sort of cheating, but you could use something like Sinamar to get the color addition too.
Got my yeast today. Ordered 2 day S&H (Nearly $19) 3 tubes w/ 3 ice packs. (Overnight was over $35) plus a 1oz pack of german magnum pellet hops. In FL, they JUST delivered 6:45 PM. box was warm. ARGH!
Wish there was a better option for this stuff..
Anyway, WLP 838 3 vials. two say best by 7/20 and one best by 6/27. Says they were bottled 4 months before best by date making the production/bottling/100% viable date: 2.27 & 3.30(x2)
So... here is the tricky part. If I want to brew on 4/21 (11 days from today) when to make my starter, and how to "fudge" the born on date to calculate the additional 11 days of aging (now they'll be in fridge however)?
Does it really matter? YES! Its like a 6% difference in viability.
I think I'm going to have to first figure out how many viable cells I have among the 3 vials per Mr Malty or Yeast Calc, and Then I can proceed to determine how to build my starter and from there, try and figure WHEN to make it, and account for time to step up/cold crash the thing, so that its ready by brew day.
TD
Wish there was a better option for this stuff..
Anyway, WLP 838 3 vials. two say best by 7/20 and one best by 6/27. Says they were bottled 4 months before best by date making the production/bottling/100% viable date: 2.27 & 3.30(x2)
So... here is the tricky part. If I want to brew on 4/21 (11 days from today) when to make my starter, and how to "fudge" the born on date to calculate the additional 11 days of aging (now they'll be in fridge however)?
Does it really matter? YES! Its like a 6% difference in viability.
I think I'm going to have to first figure out how many viable cells I have among the 3 vials per Mr Malty or Yeast Calc, and Then I can proceed to determine how to build my starter and from there, try and figure WHEN to make it, and account for time to step up/cold crash the thing, so that its ready by brew day.
TD
OP
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I have a keg of Kai's helles recipe. It's been lagering for about 8 weeks. I've been anxious to taste it, So I hooked up the gas and went for it. Even though it's flat, it tasted really good. I have a keg in front of this one, so I probably won't throw it in the kegerator for a few more weeks, but It's gonna be good.
The only thing is, that I might have used a bit too much acidulated malt. I think if I scale that back just a little, I will be good to go. We will see when it's properly carb. I can't wait..
well I think I am going to do a 3L starter on a stir plate, and start it 6 days before brew day. With one step up also 3 Liters. so a 2 stage starter with 3L and 3 tubes and I'll estimate my total cell count right now is 250, less than Mr Malty or yeast calc guesses, on account of warm temps for shipping. Heck even if its only 200 cell count with three vials right now, I'd be ok. I'd rather slightly overpitch than underpitch. this gives me 2-3 days for each stage of starter fermentation plus a goodly amount of leeway for cold-crashing. If I do it all in my 5 L starter flask I can even consider just doing 2.5 steps and only cold crashing once.
TD
TD
OP
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You have plenty of time for a starter. Even with a step up. I usually need 4 to 5 days with a step up starter.
zeg
Well-Known Member
If any of the models for predicting yeast viability or for computing yeast growth factors are accurate to better than 20% outside of a professional yeast lab setting, I will eat my hat.
well, classic American pilsner is a recognized style, and adjuncts are perfectly fine for it. German or Bohemian pilsners on the other hand are quite different.
zeg said:
So what is a homebrewer to do without a microscope and etc equipment? I'm thinking over pitch better than under pitch. Plus, impossible to determine the loss of viability incurred by temp during shipping,even with 2 day and ice packs...
TD
zeg
Well-Known Member
Well, basically you do the best you can. Pitch rates are not so critical that a 20% difference is all that important. It may be detectable, but you'd have to control a whole lot of other variables that have as big or bigger an effect before it'd be sensible to worry over it. Missing by a factor of 2 is a concern, 10-20% is probably not.
Generally it's believed that an overpitch is preferable to an underpitch, so I generally aim somewhere between 10% and 30% high. That is enough of a pad that I figure I'll most likely be no more than 10% under and no more than 50% over.
That's a good plan! I build my starter tomorrow. Is that too soon?
Planning brewing Sunday one week. Need a two stage starter. I have a 2L flask I could start it in, then pitch the whole mess into the 5L flask for step two, and save a day crashing the first stage. That gives me time for crashing the yeast WLP838 overnight or for two nights. Never used it so don't know how long it'll take to drop.
TD
Planning brewing Sunday one week. Need a two stage starter. I have a 2L flask I could start it in, then pitch the whole mess into the 5L flask for step two, and save a day crashing the first stage. That gives me time for crashing the yeast WLP838 overnight or for two nights. Never used it so don't know how long it'll take to drop.
TD
zeg
Well-Known Member
Great that you're doing multiple stages. That (at least in theory) tends to reduce the sensitivity to the exact starting value. I don't know for sure that it's accurate, but when I've done two (or even three) stage starters, I can play around with it so that halving or doubling the starting cell count only makes a small (10% or so) change in the final count. I think this happens because an underpitched starter (relative to its volume) will tend to reproduce a bit more, while an overpitched will tend to reproduce less before it runs out of food.
I'd plan to give your WLP838 two days crashing until you get to know it. The only lager yeast I've used is WLP833, and the waste "beer" is significantly clearer if I give it 36-48 hours vs 24.
I'd plan to give your WLP838 two days crashing until you get to know it. The only lager yeast I've used is WLP833, and the waste "beer" is significantly clearer if I give it 36-48 hours vs 24.
Wow!
I made stage one yesterday. 2L on stir plate. Pitched the yeast just around 2:30 PM and fermentation (72 degrees F) was complete before 24 hours! I calculated based on yeast dates from 3 tubes that my starting count was 253 billion cells using yeast calc. I think I am going to do the next stage tomorrow (Wednesday) and plan that it will finish before Friday, if not by Thursday. In either case, I should be fine for brew day on Sunday!
Psyched! Doing a Munich Helles, 11Gal, step mash with new burners installed.
TD
I made stage one yesterday. 2L on stir plate. Pitched the yeast just around 2:30 PM and fermentation (72 degrees F) was complete before 24 hours! I calculated based on yeast dates from 3 tubes that my starting count was 253 billion cells using yeast calc. I think I am going to do the next stage tomorrow (Wednesday) and plan that it will finish before Friday, if not by Thursday. In either case, I should be fine for brew day on Sunday!
Psyched! Doing a Munich Helles, 11Gal, step mash with new burners installed.
TD
StoneHands
Well-Known Member
What's your grain bill? I ask only because I've made a few good helles' in a row, and I think a little acidulated malt is crucial. I follow the water primer and with acid malt, distilled water, and calcium chloride, I'm blown away by the results. The beer smells and tastes just like the stuff in Munich.
i'm basically using the recipe from braumeister(?)
% grain
83 Ger Pils - weyermann
15 Vienna - weyermann
2 Acidulated - weyermann
I think i have planned a 70 min boil, but might go for 90 minutes cause of the Pils malt. Never used it before
Water is RO + touch of CaCl & CaSO4
Hops is Magnum for bittering and Hall Mittelfruh at 40 & 15 min for 18.5 IBU
I'd just post my Beersmith but don't know how.
Mash is as follows:
Dough In at protein rest temp 122, and immediately start heating (direct fired tun, recirculated mash - though I sometimes just use the paddle instead of the recirc when heating the steps.
First rest at 145 x 30 min
Second rest 162 x 40 min
169 Mashout x 15 min
Gives me more time to have some of the beer I just kegged and will be ready to drink (First homebrew in over a year!)
Fermentation plan
Chill to 43 post boil
90 sec O2 inj
pitch yeast
set fridge temp controller at 46 - thermowell indwelling into beer.
allow temp to rise to 46-47 x10-14 days
rack, or rather dump the yeast from the conical and save!
allow temp to rise 68-72 x3-5 days
lager @ 34 x 4-6 weeks in my serving fridge, but since its full gonna just lager by dumping the yeast again and setting freezer to 32 and leaving there until ready to rack into kegs once serving fridge has space to accomodate. since having a party this weekend, I'm sure at least one keg will kick.
Thats my plan!
TD
% grain
83 Ger Pils - weyermann
15 Vienna - weyermann
2 Acidulated - weyermann
I think i have planned a 70 min boil, but might go for 90 minutes cause of the Pils malt. Never used it before
Water is RO + touch of CaCl & CaSO4
Hops is Magnum for bittering and Hall Mittelfruh at 40 & 15 min for 18.5 IBU
I'd just post my Beersmith but don't know how.
Mash is as follows:
Dough In at protein rest temp 122, and immediately start heating (direct fired tun, recirculated mash - though I sometimes just use the paddle instead of the recirc when heating the steps.
First rest at 145 x 30 min
Second rest 162 x 40 min
169 Mashout x 15 min
Gives me more time to have some of the beer I just kegged and will be ready to drink (First homebrew in over a year!)
Fermentation plan
Chill to 43 post boil
90 sec O2 inj
pitch yeast
set fridge temp controller at 46 - thermowell indwelling into beer.
allow temp to rise to 46-47 x10-14 days
rack, or rather dump the yeast from the conical and save!
allow temp to rise 68-72 x3-5 days
lager @ 34 x 4-6 weeks in my serving fridge, but since its full gonna just lager by dumping the yeast again and setting freezer to 32 and leaving there until ready to rack into kegs once serving fridge has space to accomodate. since having a party this weekend, I'm sure at least one keg will kick.
Thats my plan!
TD
ColoHox
Compulsive Hand Washer
I know a guy who has pitched two vials of lager yeast (instead of thinking ahead and making a starter) in two of his lagers. These beers, I mean his beers, attenuated great and had unremarkable off-flavors per a national BJCP judge.
Yes, have made a lot of starters, and usually do, and probably should have for those two lagers. For all the talk about lagers needing a dumptruck full of yeast, I guess I was just lucky. Turns out, homebrewing is a pretty forgiving, albeit expensive, hobby.
Are the off flavors you would expect from underpitching a lager the same as underpitching an ale, such as increased diacetyl and esters? Or, is their appearance just more noticeable in the lighter and crisper lagers? Does the low temperature affect the metabolic profile, in that a particular by-product is more apparent?
Yes, have made a lot of starters, and usually do, and probably should have for those two lagers. For all the talk about lagers needing a dumptruck full of yeast, I guess I was just lucky. Turns out, homebrewing is a pretty forgiving, albeit expensive, hobby.
Are the off flavors you would expect from underpitching a lager the same as underpitching an ale, such as increased diacetyl and esters? Or, is their appearance just more noticeable in the lighter and crisper lagers? Does the low temperature affect the metabolic profile, in that a particular by-product is more apparent?
Hermit
fuddle
The only time I brewed with Pils malt the cooked corn aroma was distinct. Do yourself a favor and go the 90.
Yeah. Will do that for sure! 90 minute boil! Gonna be a long brew day. Hope the burners work!
Got the conical all sanitized and ready to rock and roll.
TD
Got the conical all sanitized and ready to rock and roll.
TD
Just reading this and wanted to ask, since my Czech Lager is in primary. I currently have a bubble per second from a blow off tube (Can't use an airlock due to the height of my fermentation/lager chamber). I had a three day lag on start-up at 53*F.
So, does the 10 days include the lag? Also, when I raise the temps to do the D-rest, should I raise it a few degrees at a time over a certain period or just increase all at once. I have the capability to increase by one degree or more up to four times per day. It is a programmable thermostatically controlled chamber.
My LHBS guy recommended to just move it to a warm room, but since I have the chamber I can control it much more accurately.
Thanks for your comments and wisdom in advance.
Stage two starter going! Curious to see how it takes off when I get off work tonight. Stage one was gangbusters!
Someone asked about my recipe. I was wondering if there is any feedback?
TD
Someone asked about my recipe. I was wondering if there is any feedback?
TD
StoneHands
Well-Known Member
That was me. I think the recipe looks good. I use 3% acid malt, 4% Munich and the remainder pils. RO water with calcium chloride. 130F protein rest and 149 sacc rest. I don't think our recipes are drastically different. I like wlp 833 like I said before I believe. Sounds like you're doing things well. Aerate well and pitch below ferm temps, you'll be good.
Raising it all at once is fine. Even so, it takes a long time for 5 gallons of liquid to raise up 10 degrees.
zeg
Well-Known Member
Seriously. In my chest freezer, I think it was a good 2-3 days to go from 50-65. I don't think you're likely to surprise the yeast.
When you're chilling, you have to be more careful, both because the yeast are less fond of dropping in temperature, but also because you're using a freezer that chills the ambient to sub-zero (°F) temperatures to get the fermentor down to 30-something. That will go far, far faster than waiting for a fermentor to equilibrate with the ambient temperature. If you use an active heating element to get to D-rest temps, then you might consider how quickly you want to get there.
I read through this thread and saw Yooper and others mention RO water. What is that?
To expand, I'm a geologist living in California's Sierra Nevada mountains. My drinking water comes from higher up in the Sierras, which is all granite, all silicate. There's no limestone or calcium influence in my tap water unless the local water company is adding it. There's also no calcium build-up on my taps. I make mostly German and Belgian beers, and I know that there's tons of limestone all over Europe. I forget whether "hard" water means lots of calcium or no calcium, but obviously water chemistry has a big influence on beer. Any pointers would be greatly appreciated.
Hermit
fuddle
RO is short for Reverse Osmosis. Hard water has more 'crap' in it. Take a look at the primer 'stikyed' to the top here. AJ has done a lot of water research as a hobby.
I'm new here; where's the sticky and what's it look like?
Hermit
fuddle
I believe that the "Hard" minerals primarily are Calcium and Magnesium, whilst (I love using the word whilst) Sodium is a "soft" mineral.
Water chemistry can be confusing for sure.
Starter update - stage two fermented out in less than 24 hours also. WLP838 rocks the fermentation game for sure! Collecting my RO water for brewday 10 of 15 gal collected (my filter makes about 1 gal/hr, but tanks can only hold about 4 gallons, so I got to do in stages). Got my Mittelfreu hops today. Propane tanks refilled on Wednesday. Starter now cold crashing. Homebrew should be all carbed up and ready to enjoy for brewday!
TD
Water chemistry can be confusing for sure.
Starter update - stage two fermented out in less than 24 hours also. WLP838 rocks the fermentation game for sure! Collecting my RO water for brewday 10 of 15 gal collected (my filter makes about 1 gal/hr, but tanks can only hold about 4 gallons, so I got to do in stages). Got my Mittelfreu hops today. Propane tanks refilled on Wednesday. Starter now cold crashing. Homebrew should be all carbed up and ready to enjoy for brewday!
TD
I hope this water talk isn't getting too off topic, but I'm wanting to brew some Bavarian-style lagers, and Bavaria sits on limestone, which softens water. I did a little research and my Sierra Nevada mountain water is very soft, like 14 mg/L of "hardness". Does anyone know anything about Paulaner's or Spaten's (or anyone else's) water? I'm guessing that it's different than mine, and may be fairly hard.
Since you're a geologist, can you explain this?
It is my understanding that limestone is primarily crystalline CaCO3, which erodes over time and adds Ca2+ to the water. I don't understand how it could soften water.
You, sir, are correct! If I would type what I'm thinking this would go a lot smoother. What I MEANT to say is that limestone HARDENS water, which is the opposite of what I have. I have very soft water, which I suspect is different from Bavaria's presumably hard water.
I should reveal that I am a geologist who has avoided groundwater chemistry like the plague, and therefore get my water chemistry information from Wikipedia, although I do not automatically believe everything Wiki publishes. I have, however, been to Germany/Bavaria, and Belgium, and have seen first hand that they both have limestone outcrops and caves all over the place.
Thanks for catching my mistake!
Hermit
fuddle
AJ likes to point out that while we may know what water is available, we don't always know if the local brewers treat it. His primer basically says, start with low chemical water and change 'as needed'. Do you want to make historically correct beer or beer you like? I like malty beers so I add enough Calcium Chloride to get my calcium up to 'yeast acceptable levels (at least 50ppm)' and add some sweetness and call it done. If you like hop bitterness, try gypsum instead. EASY. 
NOW we're talking! It seems like my water is a good, soft, starting point, but I like Bavarian-style Octoberfests, Marzens, Weiss beers, and Belgian beers, etc... very malty, non-bitter... so some water conditioning may be in my future. I would think that hard water might be better for lagers (the whole point of this somewhat hijacked thread... sorry), being a largely German style, right????
StoneHands
Well-Known Member
I positively love the lagers from the Big 6 in Munich, Paulaner, Hofbrau, Augustiner, Spaten, Hacker, and Lowenbrau. I wouldn't get hung up so much on the water that they use, I suspect that they treat their water accordingly. Paulaner Salvator is quite a bit different than Paulaner Hellbier. I've been blown away by the results when using distilled water, calcium chloride, and acid malt in a Munich helles. Take a look at the style first, and adjust accordingly. For your case, I'd look at your local water report, or get your water tested. Especially if you're looking to make a helles or a pils.
I'm going to shift gears away from water and talk temperature. I have a house with a temp around 65, a garage that is warming with the weather from the 40/50s into the 60s, and a second fridge (typical house fridge, but an old one) in the garage that seems to hang around 34 no matter what I set it for. Is there any hope for me making a lager (before next fall)?
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