First All Grain - Water & pH Questions

[stewart194]

I'm doing my first All Grain batch in the next few weeks, but I have some questions about water and pH.

1. I plan on starting with RO water and adding the following below for 5 gallons of water.

8 grams Gypsum (CaSO4)
.83 grams Table Salt (NaCl)
3.5 grams Epsom Salt (MgSO4)
1 gram Calcium Chloride (CaCl)

According to Beersmith this will give me Ca-113ppm, Mg-18ppm, Na-17ppm, SO4-308ppm, Cl-53ppm. This is close to the water profile that Mike McDole uses for all of his beers. Does this look OK / seem correct?

2. I recently found a water report online for the city I live in and they treat their water using chloromine. I've heard that RO water filters can't get rid of this. Should I use 1/4 of a Campden tablet in this water?

3. I'm going to batch sparge...do I need to use this treated water for sparging and the entire brewing process? Should I make up 10 gallons of this water before I start brewing just to be safe?

4. If I use this water profile, do I need to worry about pH?? Should I buy some pH test strips?

Sorry in advance for all of these rookie questions!

Thanks!!

 

[EyePeeA]

What style of beer are you brewing? That is good water for an IPA, not so much a Stout.

Another option (in order to rely on fewer treatments) is to cut your city water by 1/3, 1/2, or 2/3 with RO water. That way, you will have some residual mineral content instead of starting with a blank slate. And the only additions needed will probably be a few grams of Gypsum and a dash of Cal. Chlor. You need to know your current city water mineral levels in ppm before you do this.

 

[keend0]

I am looking to do the same thing with RO water and look forward to all your questions being answered. I primarily brew APA and IPA. Currently I add 1 tsp Calcium Chloride and 1 tsp of Gypsum per 5 gal of RO water. I scale it up and treat my entire 8 gallons of RO water I use in the process. Always looking for ways to imporve my brew.

 

[stewart194]

I'm brewing an IPA, but I've heard McDole say several times that he uses this water profile for all of his beers. Maybe he only brews beers that do well with this profile? I don't know.

Either way I'm anxious to see what everyone thinks! I've done several extract batches and a partial mash...the only thing that I'm unsure about other than water is pH. I don't know if I should get pH strips or not. I'm thinking maybe this water profile accommodates for that but I just don't know. And I do have a full water report, but I know it changes constantly. At this point I think it would be easier to start with RO water each time and build the water the way I want it since I already have an RO system installed in my kitchen.

I'm also anxious to hear what people say about Chloromines and Campden tablets. Everything I've read says it's bad for brewing. I think it is what produces the "band aid" off flavor. Now that I know our city uses this, and that RO water systems don't get rid of it, Campden tablets might be the solution.

Thanks again for any advice!!

 

[chickypad]

Definitely go with the campden. My city started using chloramines unexpectedly and I ruined 2 brews before figuring it out. Crush up 1/4 tab per 5 gallons and stir it in. I've had no problems since doing this.
If you want more detailed water advice you can always post in the brew science forum. That seems to me a pretty high level of sulfate, as EyePA indicated good for accentuating bitterness but not so much if you want to accentuate the malt. For the average brew I think you could back down a bit on the gypsum and up the CaCl (probably ditching the table salt). Just my 2 cents.

 

[Yooper]

I wouldn't use the table salt and epsom salt- you don't need the magnesium or sodium. If you want to bump up the sulfate, then gypsum is fine. I don't see any need to use calcium chloride and sulfate and epsom salts and table salt- I'd really simplify and leave out the epsom salts and table salt.

 

[twallin]

Make sure if you use table salt it doesn't have iodine in it. Iodine is bad for yeast.

 

[BigEd]

I'm doing my first All Grain batch in the next few weeks, but I have some questions about water and pH.

1. I plan on starting with RO water and adding the following below for 5 gallons of water.

8 grams Gypsum (CaSO4)
.83 grams Table Salt (NaCl)
3.5 grams Epsom Salt (MgSO4)
1 gram Calcium Chloride (CaCl)

According to Beersmith this will give me Ca-113ppm, Mg-18ppm, Na-17ppm, SO4-308ppm, Cl-53ppm. This is close to the water profile that Mike McDole uses for all of his beers. Does this look OK / seem correct?

OK for what? I'll echo what others have said and say that it depends on the beer. Using the same salt additions for every beer is akin to using the same mix of spices for every food. One size does not fit all. I also have to interject the obligatory stupid question, "Who the hell is Mike McDole?"

That's a whopping amount of SO4. It might be OK for an IPA but is way too much for a malt accented beer. Agree with what Yooper said on the Na and Mg. You really don't need them and the Epsom salt addition is part of the reason your SO4 is so high. To oversimplify things, in general shoot for a Ca+ ppm of 50-75 and use Calcium Sulphate for hoppy ales and Calcium Chloride for malty beers and lagers. From that starting point you can modify for particular brews like bumping up the SO4- ppm for IPAs.

2. I recently found a water report online for the city I live in and they treat their water using chloromine. I've heard that RO water filters can't get rid of this. Should I use 1/4 of a Campden tablet in this water?

3. I'm going to batch sparge...do I need to use this treated water for sparging and the entire brewing process? Should I make up 10 gallons of this water before I start brewing just to be safe?

4. If I use this water profile, do I need to worry about pH?? Should I buy some pH test strips?

Sorry in advance for all of these rookie questions!

Thanks!!

Do check the Brewing Science Section. There are numerous threads regarding brewing water as well as links to online brew water calculating programs. You will find instructions for eliminating chloramines and the best ways to measure the pH. BTW it's the mash pH not the water pH that's important.

 

[tgmartin000]

I am looking to do the same thing with RO water and look forward to all your questions being answered. I primarily brew APA and IPA. Currently I add 1 tsp Calcium Chloride and 1 tsp of Gypsum per 5 gal of RO water. I scale it up and treat my entire 8 gallons of RO water I use in the process. Always looking for ways to imporve my brew.

I've done this for about a year, based on the "less is more" approach, and based on the advice of much more experienced brewers like Yooper. I finally got the guts to try the full on McDole water treatment for an IPA. I thought using all RO vs. campden tablets made a big difference in my beers.

But going the full McDole really made my beers sing. I've always heard people say it makes their beers 'pop' and never understood what they meant until I tried it. I've always thought my beers had a muddled bitterness, it "sharpened" the bitterness, you could say.

And I also add some lactic acid to get my mash pH to 5.4, even with RO water. I use pH strips to measure. So that's a bit approximate. I also add a tiny amount (.3 mL) of lactic acid to my sparge water to keep the sparge pH in range. Single batch sparge.

But yea, watch the epsom salt. I'd cut that in half. And the table salt, you dont' need much sodium if any at all.

Also, get EZ Water and Bru'n Water!

 

[mabrungard]

Fortunately, all of the major ions we concern ourselves with in brewing water are useful for creating flavor and mouth perceptions. Even sodium and magnesium.

In the case of sodium, it is quite useful in enhancing the perception of sweetness when present at modest concentration. At 17 ppm sodium, the impact would be almost imperceptible. It certainly won't be detrimental. A review of some very good brewing waters shows that sodium is present at up to around 40 ppm.

The same thing can be said for magnesium. When present at modest levels, it is a great enhancement to some beers. Its sour bitterness is allied with the bittering perceptions that you would want in an bitter and hoppy beer like an IPA. Leaving magnesium out would diminish the perceptions in this beer. At 18 ppm, there is little worry about negative effects. But all brewers should recognize that the upper limit for Mg is quite near. Colin Kaminski noted that he always uses Mg in his bitter beers but had heard from other brewers not to use it. When he examined those other brewer's water reports, he understood why. Their water already contained a healthy dose of Mg. Adding any more, quickly put their water over the limit. And the limit does appear to be about 40 ppm at which you WILL have negative effects in beer. I recommend limiting the Mg level to around 30 ppm for safety. Don't be afraid to add Mg in the appropriate beer, but you had better know exactly how much is in the tap water you are using so that you don't overdose.

While BigEd properly remarks that the sulfate addition is far too high for a malt focused beer, it is quite appropriate for a hoppy and bitter beer. Unfortunately, there is a domination of a perception that sulfate is bad for beer in the Brewing Science section of this forum. This has been championed by a contributor who's beer preference is clearly to European pale lagers with their malt focus. As most brewers know, that is not the limit of the beer spectrum. Along with that, limiting sulfate in brewing water is not always needed or desirable.

David Taylor authored a chapter in a recent brewing text that included a mention of the sulfate/chloride ratio. He used the terms malty and bitter in discussing that ratio. In my opinion, he did a great disservice to the brewing community with that use. An older text, Malting and Brewing Science, discusses that ratio but used the terms fullness and dryness to describe the same effects. After reviewing the effect of those ions on my own, I agree much more with the later description. That is especially apparent for the effect of high sulfate...it is not enhancing bitterness, it is enhancing the dryness of the finish and that allows bittering to be more noticeable. But, this is an important point that is applicable to malty beers too. A lack of sulfate can leave the finish of a beer too full and malty. Concentrating on only chloride in a beer can leave you with a beer that does not dry out enough. And one thing I have found for almost every great commercial beer is that they dry out 'adequately' and don't leave the drinker with a cloying palate. Sulfate IS NOT a bad word when it comes to brewing. Just be sure to use appropriately. I have not ventured to 350 ppm, but I use 300 ppm sulfate in my hoppy beers regularly. It is the secret to having a hoppy beer that 'pops' as mentioned above. However, that doesn't mean that all drinkers will appreciate that level. I am enjoying a PA that I purposely brewed with only 100 ppm sulfate to check the effect. It is a fine beer, but it does lack the pop that I'm used to. I suggest that a sulfate level in the 100 to 300 ppm range will be admired by a wide range of drinkers...you just need to find what pleases you.

Finally, Tasty's water recommendations for hoppy beers are quite similar to the Pale Ale recommendations I make in Bru'n Water. Many brewers find these levels to make an excellent hoppy beer.

Enjoy!

 

[stewart194]

I am looking to do the same thing with RO water and look forward to all your questions being answered. I primarily brew APA and IPA. Currently I add 1 tsp Calcium Chloride and 1 tsp of Gypsum per 5 gal of RO water. I scale it up and treat my entire 8 gallons of RO water I use in the process. Always looking for ways to imporve my brew.

Thanks for the reply! I added 1 tsp of Calcium Chloride and 100% RO water, along with 1/2 of a Campden Tablet for the first time with my first and only partial mash which was an Oatmeal Stout. It was a 5 gallon batch and it was my best brew to date without a doubt. That's why I decided to make the move to All Grain sooner than I originally planned. I had one extract IPA that I was really proud of, but the other 7 batches just weren't as good as I'd hoped. They were definitely drinkable, but I just wasn't happy with them. I realize this has little to do with Extract vs All Grain, but more with my my process improving thanks to Yooper and others here on this forum. Fermentation temp control, yeast starters, using a wort chiller, etc, etc.

Anyway, I'm very thankful to everyone on this site and am really enjoying the art of brewing!

Definitely go with the campden. My city started using chloramines unexpectedly and I ruined 2 brews before figuring it out. Crush up 1/4 tab per 5 gallons and stir it in. I've had no problems since doing this.
If you want more detailed water advice you can always post in the brew science forum. That seems to me a pretty high level of sulfate, as EyePA indicated good for accentuating bitterness but not so much if you want to accentuate the malt. For the average brew I think you could back down a bit on the gypsum and up the CaCl (probably ditching the table salt). Just my 2 cents.

Thanks! I'll continue to use Campden tablets! Once I started doing this the off flavor I was tasting in all of my brews disappeared. Do they call the off flavor caused by Chloromines the "Band Aid" flavor? That's how it tastes to me but I'm not sure yet. I will definitely check out the brew science forum!

Thanks again!

I wouldn't use the table salt and epsom salt- you don't need the magnesium or sodium. If you want to bump up the sulfate, then gypsum is fine. I don't see any need to use calcium chloride and sulfate and epsom salts and table salt- I'd really simplify and leave out the epsom salts and table salt.

Thanks again Yooper for all of your advice! You've helped me a ton in the past and I really appreciate it. In fact you were the first person who told me that brewing with RO water was fine to use.

How do you think Mike McDole gets away with using the same water profile, VERY close to the one I posted, for every beer? I doubt that he only brews beers that work well with this water profile. Maybe he does I don't know, but I think I've heard him say that he's brewed pilsners and lagers with this water profile also. But then again the podcasts that I heard him on were from several years back.

Make sure if you use table salt it doesn't have iodine in it. Iodine is bad for yeast.

Thanks! I'll check this out! My wife works at an organic health and wellness store, and we buy our salt and other items in bulk for the most part. The salt we use is "Celtic Sea Salt". I'll check to see if it has iodine in it! If iodine is added to regular table salt and isn't naturally occurring I bet it doesn't, but I will check!

I've done this for about a year, based on the "less is more" approach, and based on the advice of much more experienced brewers like Yooper. I finally got the guts to try the full on McDole water treatment for an IPA. I thought using all RO vs. campden tablets made a big difference in my beers.

But going the full McDole really made my beers sing. I've always heard people say it makes their beers 'pop' and never understood what they meant until I tried it. I've always thought my beers had a muddled bitterness, it "sharpened" the bitterness, you could say.

And I also add some lactic acid to get my mash pH to 5.4, even with RO water. I use pH strips to measure. So that's a bit approximate. I also add a tiny amount (.3 mL) of lactic acid to my sparge water to keep the sparge pH in range. Single batch sparge.

But yea, watch the epsom salt. I'd cut that in half. And the table salt, you dont' need much sodium if any at all.

Also, get EZ Water and Bru'n Water!

THANKS!! I plan on doing the single batch sparge method as well. When you used McDole's water profile, was this only for your IPA's?? Have you also heard him say that he uses this for every beer? I just wonder what this would do in a lighter / more subtle beer like a Blue Moon Clone??

Also, do you use ALL treated RO water?? Even for your sparge water?? What kind of pH strips do you use??

Fortunately, all of the major ions we concern ourselves with in brewing water are useful for creating flavor and mouth perceptions. Even sodium and magnesium.

In the case of sodium, it is quite useful in enhancing the perception of sweetness when present at modest concentration. At 17 ppm sodium, the impact would be almost imperceptible. It certainly won't be detrimental. A review of some very good brewing waters shows that sodium is present at up to around 40 ppm.

The same thing can be said for magnesium. When present at modest levels, it is a great enhancement to some beers. Its sour bitterness is allied with the bittering perceptions that you would want in an bitter and hoppy beer like an IPA. Leaving magnesium out would diminish the perceptions in this beer. At 18 ppm, there is little worry about negative effects. But all brewers should recognize that the upper limit for Mg is quite near. Colin Kaminski noted that he always uses Mg in his bitter beers but had heard from other brewers not to use it. When he examined those other brewer's water reports, he understood why. Their water already contained a healthy dose of Mg. Adding any more, quickly put their water over the limit. And the limit does appear to be about 40 ppm at which you WILL have negative effects in beer. I recommend limiting the Mg level to around 30 ppm for safety. Don't be afraid to add Mg in the appropriate beer, but you had better know exactly how much is in the tap water you are using so that you don't overdose.

While BigEd properly remarks that the sulfate addition is far too high for a malt focused beer, it is quite appropriate for a hoppy and bitter beer. Unfortunately, there is a domination of a perception that sulfate is bad for beer in the Brewing Science section of this forum. This has been championed by a contributor who's beer preference is clearly to European pale lagers with their malt focus. As most brewers know, that is not the limit of the beer spectrum. Along with that, limiting sulfate in brewing water is not always needed or desirable.

David Taylor authored a chapter in a recent brewing text that included a mention of the sulfate/chloride ratio. He used the terms malty and bitter in discussing that ratio. In my opinion, he did a great disservice to the brewing community with that use. An older text, Malting and Brewing Science, discusses that ratio but used the terms fullness and dryness to describe the same effects. After reviewing the effect of those ions on my own, I agree much more with the later description. That is especially apparent for the effect of high sulfate...it is not enhancing bitterness, it is enhancing the dryness of the finish and that allows bittering to be more noticeable. But, this is an important point that is applicable to malty beers too. A lack of sulfate can leave the finish of a beer too full and malty. Concentrating on only chloride in a beer can leave you with a beer that does not dry out enough. And one thing I have found for almost every great commercial beer is that they dry out 'adequately' and don't leave the drinker with a cloying palate. Sulfate IS NOT a bad word when it comes to brewing. Just be sure to use appropriately. I have not ventured to 350 ppm, but I use 300 ppm sulfate in my hoppy beers regularly. It is the secret to having a hoppy beer that 'pops' as mentioned above. However, that doesn't mean that all drinkers will appreciate that level. I am enjoying a PA that I purposely brewed with only 100 ppm sulfate to check the effect. It is a fine beer, but it does lack the pop that I'm used to. I suggest that a sulfate level in the 100 to 300 ppm range will be admired by a wide range of drinkers...you just need to find what pleases you.

Finally, Tasty's water recommendations for hoppy beers are quite similar to the Pale Ale recommendations I make in Bru'n Water. Many brewers find these levels to make an excellent hoppy beer.

Enjoy!

THANKS!! This is a lot of information! I've been out of town for a few days but I'll take a closer look at this as soon as I get a chance!

What is your take on Tasty saying that he uses this same water profile for every beer he brews?? Do you think this profile would be terrible in a Stout? I know he's won a lot of awards with this...IF he meant what he said and still adheres to this.

Thanks again!!

Thanks again to all of you who replied! This forum has been great. I do use the search function for every question I have, but there is so much information to wade through and there are a lot of conflicting reports and opinions.

Questions that I still have…

1. Should I use pH strips? Which ones should I buy??
2. When should I measure the pH? After I stir in the water for my mash and again after I stir in my sparge water for the 2nd runnings??
3. After I use pH strips and get my recipes dialed in, can I stop measuring the pH or is this something I should do every time??

Thanks again!! I can’t say that enough!!

 

[SW Ohio Keith]

Questions that I still have…

1. Should I use pH strips? Which ones should I buy??
2. When should I measure the pH? After I stir in the water for my mash and again after I stir in my sparge water for the 2nd runnings??
3. After I use pH strips and get my recipes dialed in, can I stop measuring the pH or is this something I should do every time??

Thanks again!! I can’t say that enough!!

I have a pH meter ($50) and use it throughout the entire brew. I check and adjust my strike water, sparge water, and check the mash first runnings, and sparge runnings.