High ABV IPA

[TahoeRy]

So I need some feedback here on ways to brew high ABV beers, specifically IIPA's. I have a good understanding of how to brew a great IPA. I like them dry, hoppy, about 6-7% ABV and about 60 - 70 IBU (50 /50 mix of bittering to flavor/aroma). I make them with a very simple grain bill, typically 95% base malt and about 5% specialty malt, mashed low and long for a really fermentable and dry base for the hops to really shine. I love this formula and it works with any (mostly) hop or specialty grain.

I just tried my hands at an Imperial IPA and its really on the alcoholic side, hot as they would say. My attempt at this was the following:

Simple grain bill consisting of:
90.3% 2 Row
6.5% Vicotry
3.2% Munich

Bittered with Warrior and flavored, aroma and dry hopped with a mix of Amarillo, Simcoe and Cascade.

Specs:
OG: 1.076
FG: 1.010
ABV: 8.8%
IBU: 89.7 -> 37.3 in just bitterness
SRM: 6.7

I really don't like the malty Imperial IPA's that seem to dominate the landscape of IIPA's. I am starting to think that the reason for this is that the malty / sweet base seems to counter the hot alcohol bite of these Imperials.

Does anybody have any advice on how to take the same simple dry base approach of an IPA to an imperial and get the same effect? I am thinking of mashing more of the same grist, a bit higher for a sweeter finish and higher ABV (shooting for about 9-10ABV), increasing the IBU's to about 100 and changing the bittering addition to account for about 60% of the total IBU's.

Thoughts???? Advice???? Anything?????

Thanks in advance!

 

[benflath]

I think the basic idea is adding fermentables without adding body. Sugar is the classic way to achieve this goal. Honey is also a good way to get a dry finish with increased sugar, but it costs more. 6-row also has more fermentables with less body, but there may be a limit to how much you can use, I don't know.

I've never done an IIPA, though, so I couldn't really answer to how much, etc., but you could probably play with quantities in BeerSmith or whatever program until hit your goals.

 

[TahoeRy]

I think that adding sugar will boost the ABV, adding more of that hot alcohol taste without really balancing it. I know that it would dry it out a bit, so maybe that's something I should consider in addition to a bit more malty flavors and more bitterness. I think the bitter bite might be the answer in addition to a few changes. I also brewed an imperial amber the same week with only around 35 IBU's and its great. Maybe the key is more malty sweetness to counter that alcohol hot. I am not sure.

 

[stevedasleeve]

My imperials/IIPAs are around 150-200 calculated IBUs, and 1/2-1 lb cane sugar. Mashed at 148-50.

 

[TahoeRy]

So do you feel the high IBU and sugar counter that high ABV? I'm thinking the high bitterness could help balance it.

 

[stevedasleeve]

Yes!

 

[TahoeRy]

Ok, so I will make the following changes to my next IIPA:
1.) A bit more base malt and specialty grain for a maltier taste, still mashed low and long. I am going to shoot for a 1.080 - 1.085 = 9% - 10% ABV.

2.) I will add about 1lb of sugar or dextrose for a higher ABV, body and mouthfeel

3.) I will increase the overall IBU to about 120, with the bittering addition contributing about 60 - 70 of the IBU's to offset the high ABV taste and balance the malt

4.) I am going to pitch more yeast so they don't get stressed while fermenting and prevent any off flavors that might happen in this environment.

I think this might do it, if not I will learn a bit more so I can perfect this style. I am leaving for Colorado today and will brew this up next week when I get home. Ill post my results when I am done.

 

[sweetcell]

I just tried my hands at an Imperial IPA and its really on the alcoholic side, hot as they would say.

what yeast did you use, and at what temp did you ferment? hot alcohol can be a product of stressed yeast (under-pitching, under-oxigenated, lack of nutrients, etc) and of a hot fermentation. for a clean fermentation you want to keep the yeast at the very low end of its recommended range.

6-row also has more fermentables with less body, but there may be a limit to how much you can use, I don't know.

6-row has more protein and more enzymes. not sure about the body thing. the limit is often lautering - use too much and all that protein gums up = stuck mash.

2.) I will add about 1lb of sugar or dextrose for a higher ABV, body and mouthfeel

not sure if this is what you meant, but adding sugar will thin out the mouthfeel and body.

 

[TahoeRy]

I used American Ale from Wyeast 1272. I fermented at about 62, although the fermentation created temps close to about 67-68 for the first 5 days or so. I pitched a good size starter, stepping up my yeast in 3L of wort (after a 1L which I decanted prior to adding the 3L of wort). I added yeast nutrients and used a 60 second blast of O2. I assumed that they needed the full blast of O2 to help with fermentation so maybe I should reduce that to 30 seconds.

I use a Briess 2-Row as my base malt.

You are correct Sweetcell, I was thinking Maltodextrin for the body and mouthfeel. I am shooting for a dryer IIPA so maybe the regular dextrose might be good to help thin it out a bit while upping the ABV? What are your takes on this?

 

[GuldTuborg]

If you're looking for a drier version of what you posted above (which it sounds like you are), drop the Munich and a half pound to a pound of base malt, and add the sugar as planned. One to two lbs ought to do the trick.

Here's another thought. Even when fermented to a relatively dry level, I find the flavor of Briess's base malts (the pale and pale ale malts, specifically) to be very one dimensional and slightly sweet in flavor. If you're like me and get that experience from them, you might need to add something else to cover up the flavor to get that experience of dryness. Upping the victory might help, or adding something like an amber or brown malt, in small quantities, could help get you a different flavor profile.

Or, you could just take the easy route and add more hops. Nothing makes you forget about a bit of sweetness like tongue bruising bitterness from hops. Me, I'd do a bit of each: drop the Munich entirely, up the victory, drop a pound of the base malt, add sugar in the 1-2 lb range, and up the hops a bit. Mash nice and low for a good 90 minutes, and don't mash out. Just lauter and sparge after your mash is over. Everything else looks good.

 

[TahoeRy]

Thanks for the input. One question for you. Why no mash out? Will that hurt the efficiency?

 

[sweetcell]

TahoeRy, sounds like you have fermentation well under control. 60 seconds of O2 was fine, don't go to 30.

guldTuborg's plan sounds like a good one. personally i prefer a bit of character from munich, but if you're going for nothing by hops then dropping it in favor of sugar is a good way to go. let us know how it turned out!

 

[sweetcell]

Thanks for the input. One question for you. Why no mash out? Will that hurt the efficiency?

that'll increase efficiency and make your wort even more fermentable.

the point of mashing out is to stop conversion and denature all the enzymes. if you don't mash out, the enzymes will continue working on your first runnings while you sparge (unless you turn the heat up on your boil kettle right away). mashing out is important for beers that you want to preserve some body in (like a stout), for something that you're trying to thin out as much as possible you can skip it and hope to get another percent of efficiency.

if you do all the above steps, you'll end up with a highly, highly fermentable wort. looking forward to hearing about your next OG!

 

[TahoeRy]

That makes sense. So instead of sparging with 169 degree water I should sparge with the same temp water as I mashed at, correct? In this case ill sparge with 148 degree water.

Thanks for all the input. Learn something everyday on here!

 

[sweetcell]

yup, you could even bump up the sparge water a little, say to 154, so you get the alpha amylaze going.

but the real increase in fermentability is coming in your first runnings. they're sitting in your boil kettle and still converting while you recirculate your sparge.

 

[daksin]

Consider a VERY LONG mash at a moderate temperature, 151-153, where both beta and alpha amylase can work happily. The longer the mash, the more fermentable the wort. Try 2hours (although by the end of that pretty much all of your enzymes will be dead) but you'll be sure to get the max amylase action possible.

 

[TahoeRy]

I was considering that to get just a bit of a sweeter wort to balance the higher ibu and abv. The sugar addition in the boil should dry that out a bit and that might hit the sweet spot for balancing such a big beer. I'm not a big fan of sugar in the boil but in this case I think it's needed.

 

[Hopper5000]

If the yeast brew was too hot tasting I would try a different yeast, something that is clean, accentuates hops, and has good attenuation. My go to is WLP001 which I normally get 80% efficiency from, thus leaving a dry finish. WY1056 is similar but usually gets slightly less attenuation which might be helpful if you want your brews drier. Making dry and tasty IPA's is a specialty done by Russian River Brewing in California which I am sure you have heard of. I would look up Vinnie's techniques. I know his basic rule of thumb is to use mostly base malt, a small amount of crystal (he feels like the sweetness takes away from the hops), and a bit of carapils. I believe he also uses about 5 to 10% corn sugar to dry the beer out. Mashing low will work too but being around 150 should be fine.

 

[sweetcell]

Try 2hours (although by the end of that pretty much all of your enzymes will be dead) but you'll be sure to get the max amylase action possible.

enzymes don't die. they're chemical catalysts that trigger a reaction, but leave the reaction unused and unchanged.

 

[TahoeRy]

Its not a yeast issue, in my opinion. I think it's more of a balance issue. I tried to take the same approach to a high abv beer that I would take to a normal 6.5% IPA. It's a hot alcohol taste that should mellow but the beer is just simply unbalanced. 1272 is basically the same as wlp001 and 1056. Its a higher attenuating (than 1056), slightly fruity American ale yeast strain that's my house strain.

Sweetcell is right, Budweiser mashes low for about 4 hours for a reason. They want a dry beer.

 

[GuldTuborg]

Others have covered this as well, but I'll give one more take on the no mash out option. When you don't mash out, and sparge relatively cool (say, just above mash temps), you allow the enzymes to keep working as you lauter and sparge. That means that all the time you're lautering and sparging you're still effectively "mashing," in the traditional sense. I do it to save time, as mashing for 90 minutes with no mash out is roughly equivalent to mashing 120 minutes with a mash out. Cuts a half hour out of my brew day.

Yes, yes, I know I lose a little bit of control over my fermentability this way, but it's not much. After 90-120 minutes, most enzymes have been denatured anyway, and the changes to the mash are happening very slowly. It's a small amount of control I'm losing, and the convenience of the method far outweighs the drawbacks, for me.

 

[daksin]

enzymes don't die. they're chemical catalysts that trigger a reaction, but leave the reaction unused and unchanged.

Dead meaning denatured, meaning unfolded and nonfunctional, which both alpha and beta amylase will be after two hours in the 150F range at the pH we're interested in.

Enzymes are protein catalysts (often with an organic or inorganic cofactor, which can be the actual catalyst- in the case of amylase, it's calcium).

Sometimes common vernacular is more useful than jargon, I think. I'm a biologist and I prefer quick and easy speak when it's not needed, even with other scientists.