beer coming out too fast even at 8 PSI

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Eddiebosox

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I did a search and couldn't find anyone with exactly my problem so I thought id ask here. First time kegging and I'm on my second kegged batch. I set it to about 9 PSI as it's an English bitter , and I use a standard picnic tap, with 5 feet hose that came with the Midwest brewers kit. My problem is the beer comes out way too fast and ends up foaming up as a result. It's not foamy in the tube, or even when it comes out of the tap, but it’s the speed at which it comes out that causes it to foam. Do I need more resistance in the tubing? Maybe add a few feet?
 
I actually use 2 foot lines with picnic taps.I have an 18 inch long piece of tubing inserted in the dip tube. I think that it is 3/16" tubing. I bought it at Lowes for almost nothing. I got the idea from Bobby M. in a thread about using epoxy mixing tubes in the dip tube to add resistance. The vinyl tubing is much cheaper.
 
I'm running somewhere in the neighborhood of 6ft lines, with the perfect flow amount even set at roughly 12-15PSI. There is a formula for the line length somewhere on here. i found no matter what i did that 5ft line was too short with 3/16th
 
I'm running somewhere in the neighborhood of 6ft lines, with the perfect flow amount even set at roughly 12-15PSI. There is a formula for the line length somewhere on here. i found no matter what i did that 5ft line was too short with 3/16th

I found this:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f84/beer-line-length-pressure-calculator-35369/

But according to the chart, with my beer at 42 F and 10 PSI and a carb level of about 2.2, my tubing should be 45 inches long. Its already 60 inches (5 feet) and comes out too fast.
 
I did a search and couldn't find anyone with exactly my problem so I thought id ask here. First time kegging and I'm on my second kegged batch. I set it to about 9 PSI as it's an English bitter , and I use a standard picnic tap, with 5 feet hose that came with the Midwest brewers kit. My problem is the beer comes out way too fast and ends up foaming up as a result. It's not foamy in the tube, or even when it comes out of the tap, but it’s the speed at which it comes out that causes it to foam. Do I need more resistance in the tubing? Maybe add a few feet?

Important: What temperature is the keg? You mentioned 42F, but is that constant? 9PSI @ 32F is WAY different than 9PSI @ 42F. Even with a 10-degree swing, the beer could be absorbing CO2 as the temp drops and then over-pressurizing the keg when the temp rises.

Read Chapter 5 of the Draft Quality Manual and all mysteries shall be solved.
 
We were just "talking" here on the forum about this yesterday.

The resistance calculators seem to not work for many, including one of my friends who is a professional brewer.

I started with 5' lines, went to 6' lines, then 8' lines, then finally 10' lines. That works well, for up to about 14 psi. If I was starting over, instead of changing the lines over the years to longer and longer, I'd start with 12' lines to begin with. The worst that will happen with too-long lines is that it will take a few seconds longer to pour a beer- so there is no disadvantage to longer lines.

Here's one of the threads we chatted in last night: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/weird-force-carb-question-404879/

It may seem like it's "defying the laws of physics", but seriously- use 10-12' lines and the foaming issue will go away. Brewerforlife discussed some of the "why", and as he mentioned his side job is running draft systems for other brewpubs and bars. So he knows what he's talking about (plus he's a friend of mine, and I know he wouldn't steer any of us wrong :D)

If changing the lines won't work (say, it's in a tower or something), epoxy mixers in the keg work. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/cure-your-short-hose-troubles-100151/
 
I found this:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f84/beer-line-length-pressure-calculator-35369/

But according to the chart, with my beer at 42 F and 10 PSI and a carb level of about 2.2, my tubing should be 45 inches long. Its already 60 inches (5 feet) and comes out too fast.

Those calculators/charts are used for commercial draft systems, and the only thing most of them do is calculate the line length that will result in a flow rate of ~1gal/min. This works for most commercial systems because the beer is stored and served very cold. The warmer the beer is, the slower the pour needs to be to prevent foaming, and 1gal/min is too fast for most beers at 42°. Unfortunately those calculators and equations aren't valid for any flow rates other than 1 gal/min because they assume a fixed line resistance, but line resistance is actually a function of flow rate.

The only line calculator I've seen that accounts for different flow rates (and therefore variable line resistance figures) is below. It allows you to input your desired flow rate in terms of the time to fill a pint. For 2.2 vol at 42° I'd suggest something in the neighborhood of a 10-12 sec pint fill time, which for you means 7.5-10.2 feet of beer line. Also keep in mind that it's much easier to trim a foot off of a line that's too long than it is to replace a line that's too short. And as mentioned above, there's no disadvantage to longer lines other than a slightly slower pour.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApGb-vIKLq7FdGtzN3BrY2xZSldORzQ2bHVVX0hzaEE#gid=0

It may seem like it's "defying the laws of physics", but seriously- use 10-12' lines and the foaming issue will go away.

It only seems to defy the laws of physics because the equations used all assume that line resistance is a fixed figure for a given line, when in reality it's dependent on the flow rate.
 
Important: What temperature is the keg? You mentioned 42F, but is that constant? 9PSI @ 32F is WAY different than 9PSI @ 42F. Even with a 10-degree swing, the beer could be absorbing CO2 as the temp drops and then over-pressurizing the keg when the temp rises.

Read Chapter 5 of the Draft Quality Manual and all mysteries shall be solved.

pretty much. I have a keezer with temp controller on it.
 
Those calculators/charts are used for commercial draft systems, and the only thing most of them do is calculate the line length that will result in a flow rate of ~1gal/min. This works for most commercial systems because the beer is stored and served very cold. The warmer the beer is, the slower the pour needs to be to prevent foaming, and 1gal/min is too fast for most beers at 42°. Unfortunately those calculators and equations aren't valid for any flow rates other than 1 gal/min because they assume a fixed line resistance, but line resistance is actually a function of flow rate.

The only line calculator I've seen that accounts for different flow rates (and therefore variable line resistance figures) is below. It allows you to input your desired flow rate in terms of the time to fill a pint. For 2.2 vol at 42° I'd suggest something in the neighborhood of a 10-12 sec pint fill time, which for you means 7.5-10.2 feet of beer line. Also keep in mind that it's much easier to trim a foot off of a line that's too long than it is to replace a line that's too short. And as mentioned above, there's no disadvantage to longer lines other than a slightly slower pour.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ApGb-vIKLq7FdGtzN3BrY2xZSldORzQ2bHVVX0hzaEE#gid=0



It only seems to defy the laws of physics because the equations used all assume that line resistance is a fixed figure for a given line, when in reality it's dependent on the flow rate.


Thanks. I dont really care how long ti takes to fill a pint, I just want it to pour without foam. if it takes a few extra seconds, I'll somehow find a way to cope with the emotional trauma.

Ill just buy a ten foot tube and experiment.
 
Are you sure that there is nothing stuck in the faucet? I drank a whole keg of foamy beer because i was too lazy to take it apart and see what was wrong on the inside (I was still drinking beer so I didn't have any motivation to fix it lol). I took it apart last weekend only to find a rubber gasket got wedged in the faucet when I cleaned everything a month or two earlier.

image-2408843486.jpg
 
I used to use the picnic tap w/ 5' line, and I always got a foamy mess unless I turned the pressure down below 5 psi.


I now use a 10' ish lines and it works way better out to about 14psi. As always, ymmv.
 
I have a keezer with a Johnson digital temp controller set to "shut-off" mode at 36F, probe shoved into an empty bottle and the differential set fairly tight (3 degrees). My secondary temp monitor reads 38 about 90% of the time, dipping to 36 right after the freezer runs and just barely flashing 40 before it kicks back in.

Using Perlick 525SS faucets and 4.5ft of 3/16" ID vinyl tubing, I get absolutely perfect pours every time at 12.5PSI.

The only times I have had foaming issues:
  1. I tried the quick (high PSI and shake/roll keg) force carb method and slightly over carbed the keg. Best bet is to set it at service pressure and be patient.
  2. Some hop fragments got stuck inside the liquid poppet on the keg.

Do you have a fan circulating air inside the keezer? Otherwise the top of the keg can actually be a few degrees warmer than the bottom.

Have you checked to be sure that your temp controller and/or regulator are properly calibrated?
 
I know when using a picnic tap, I need to have the pressure be 5psi or lower to prevent any foaming with a 5' line.
 
My beer lines are 17" of 3/16" I inserted a single epoxy mixing stick and pour at 9-10PSI. Takes about 30 seconds to pour a pint and with perfect foam. The beer is better carb'd as well. Before I put the mixer stick in, the beer was a bit flat and too much foam at 5PSI

Good luck
Rick
 

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