A way to make hard Feijoa Cider?

[Lazarescu]

Hey there,

Just signed up, I'm a newbie to brewing/fermenting and this is my first thread.

It's feijoa season here in New Zealand and I picked up 3 plastic bags full from a co-worker last night with the intention of making cider.
Feijoas are also called pineapple guavas for you guys in the States. There is more info on them here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acca_sellowiana

We have been having a conversation on Reddit about what recipe I should be following to make feijoa cider from feijoa juice only (no extra or other juices added), and a few options have been thrown around. You can see that conversation here: http://redd.it/gi1sd

Anyway, I am interested in some more opinions on this topic. Some are saying use pectic enzyme, other not. Some are monitoring pH levels, others not. There is indecision over what the OG should be, and what periods of time it should be left fermenting. Whether or not to pasturise, to leave to age or not.

I am leaning towards using this method: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f32/wa...ider-scratch-will-process-recipe-work-129870/
Is this a good idea? I'm also thinking of appropriating this method: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f25/man-i-love-apfelwein-14860/

The more I read the more confusing it gets! What enzymes, what acids, what yeast and how much of each?!

Any help would be amazingly appreciated as I think the fruit will be off by the end of the weekend! Need to visit the brewshop on Saturday!

Cheers
Laza

 

[oldmate]

I don't know what the fruit is like to be honest, therefore I have no way of knowing if it will clear or not. I keep my pectic enzyme in the fridge to last longer because I only use it if I am using something that will not clear by itself (eg. boiled apple juice, cloudy apple juice). It's up to you and the method you choose if you want to add the enzyme.

If this fruit tastes like pineapple then my guess would be it would have enough acid for taste. If not, you can always add some acid blend after fermentation. So I say try it without it, then add if you need it. A packet of wine/champagne yeast should do the job.

The OG is up to you, how alcoholic do you want it? If you use the juice straight out (maybe mixed with some apple juice?) you will get an ABV of around 5-6% I would think. I guess the method I would take is to stick them all in the freezer. Once frozen, juice half and add to some apple juice. Pitch your yeast (and enzyme if you choose), then after fermentation add the rest of the juice and backsweeten if you want it sweet. I am also unsure if you plan on using apple juice or not, or using the juice straight out? I don't even know if it has juice, in which case I would do the same but with flesh (no seed/skins)

Another thing you will need to think about is if you want it still or sparkling, sweet or dry?

 

[Brewkowski]

Pectic enzyme if you're worried about it beying crystal clear, not sure what the fruit is like so I can't really say for sure about acid. Can you scoop out the seeds and separate them from the fruit? I'd get the fruit pulp and mash it with some sugar and water to get a OG around 1.055-1.060 depending on how strong you want it. I like ale yeasts for cider, but if you want it sparkling maybe a champagne yeast would work better?

 

[Lazarescu]

Thanks for your quick replies guys!

Feijoas are usually eaten by cutting in half and scooping out the flesh with a spoon. They don't taste like pineapples... I can't really describe the taste! They are tart and acidic (will sting open sores in your mouth). They start off sour then go sweet in your mouth. The consistency is kind of like porridge.

This image gives you an idea of what the juice is like:

Pretty thick eh? Disregard that kumara in the picture, it's not a feijoa.

oldmate: I plan to use only feijoa juice if possible. They are a pretty juicy fruit (i.e. you can squeeze it out with your fingers very easily). My guess is that the juice that comes out will be very cloudy/thick. An ABV of about 5-6% would be ideal, although I know that many apple ciders are around 8%. A dry feijoa cider would be cool.

Hophead75: Sparkling would be cool, but since this is the first try, I'm not too fussed either way. Can I use honey instead of sugar? What kind of consistency of honey is good? If not, what type of sugar? You could never separate the seeds, the are generally eaten with the flesh.

 

[SlackerCam]

For those of you who didn't follow the wiki link a Feijoa looks like this in cross section:

They are between 50-90mm in length (quite a small fruit).

 

[oldmate]

If you want a higher ABV, then add sugar/honey to the must. Be prepared to add some nutrient if you are fermenting with honey as it has little to no nutrients for the yeast. As for choosing the type of honey, pick one that you think would nicely compliment the taste that a feijora has. Not being able to remove the seeds may be a problem as it is common that the seeds, pith and skin usually cause off-tastes (I think it's usually a bitter taste). I'm not sure though, if you can eat the seeds and they do not taste much different than the flesh itself, I don't think you would have too much of a problem.

If it is cloudy you can always add pectic enzyme, the directions are usually on the packet (just like yeast). If you want more of a wine taste then I would recommend using Hophead's method of watering it down with water and sugar, but if you're looking at a sort of apple-feijora cider add some juice to primary and some to secondary.

 

[Lazarescu]

Thanks, oldmate.

So I just stir in sugar/honey and keep testing the wort (?) with the hydrometer until it reaches the desired SG? After fermentation, what would be the final SG I am looking for? Or should I just wait 'till it stops bubbling?

And final question I think, how do I know how much yeast to add?

Thanks heaps!

 

[oldmate]

Yep, that sounds good. I think you'd be aiming around 1.070 for a stronger cider or 1.050 - 1.060 original gravity (OG) for a little less ABV. Final gravity (FG) would be around 1.000, but sometimes goes under depending on what yeast you use and a whole wrange of variables. When you think that it is done, test with a hydrometer a few days in a row and if you get a stable reading (ie. it is the same each day) then it has finished. After that I would either let it clear naturally and aging for a bit in a secondary vessel but if you want it carbed, I would prime and bottle. Note that this method will give you a dry sparkling cider.

Yeast is very simple, if you have a brew shop near you, follow the directions on the packaging (or even ask the dude at the counter). If not, I usually just pour a bunch in (around 5/10g), it doesn't really matter. If you add too little, fermentation will just lag a little bit, and if you add too much, it will just be a normal fermentation with extra trub at the bottom.

Also, if you use honey don't forget to add yeast nutrient/energiser otherwise you might get some off tastes. Keep in mind that juice that goes through fermentation usually doesn't taste like the juice anymore (eg. wine) so maybe think about priming with some feirjora juice when you bottle to keep a better flavour.

 

[Lazarescu]

Cheers dude! I think I'm ready to give this a shot now! Off to the brewshoppe tomorrow morning to pick up the stuff I need

 

[Lazarescu]

Okay, so this didn't work out as well as expected.

I first had issues when I tried too take the SG of the feijoa juice. It's so thick! The hydrometer would just sit where I put it! So I ended up having to do the apple juice mix. I had 6 litres of feijoa and 6 litres of organic apple juice with no preservatives or added sugar, 12 litre all togther. It was still pretty thick but I think I got a reading of 1.035.

Following this, I figured that if I used honey then it would just become thicker and impossible to read the SG if it raised any higher. So I used a chart that I have that shows grams of sugar per litre to SG and figured out how much sugar I would have to add to get it up to 1.070 and added that and stirred it in. I had previously added campden to the feijoas before I added the apple juice. I also added in some nutrients (the phosphates, etc) and vitamin B as yeast activator. Finally added the yeast and let it go.

It was bubbling though the airlock in about half an hour, so it seems like it's working.

So yeah, pretty dubious. I'm gonna keep a check on it, but probably will just try and watch around the 3 week mark for when it stops bubbling - I'm not sure I'll be able to check the FG but I'll try.

Thick cider anyone?

 

[oldmate]

The alcohol will thin it out (it's eating up all those sugars which are making it thick'. Don't doubt it, it sounds like what you've put into the fermenter is of pretty good quality which almost always spits out something drinkable +. Time to let it ride, let us know how it comes out! :rockin:

 

[Lazarescu]

It's bubbling like crazy, maybe 5-10 second intervals!

Im gonna give it about 3 weeks and see how the bubbling is going. After I prime and bottle, how long should I keep it on the shelf before drinking?

 

[oldmate]

Don't rely on airlock bubbling as a sole indicator of fermentation, use hydrometer readings as well to ensure your final product has fermented all of the sugars. You say you're were on a OG of 1.070? I'd give it at the very least a month in primary, and then transfer to a secondary until clear. I think you'll be looking at around 3 months if not more before bottling. It all depends on how it tastes when you finish your primary fermentation. I will hesitate a guess that it will come out sourish with not much apple/feijora taste with a slight alcohol heat to it. It will probably all mellow out in this time, patience is the key!

 

[Lazarescu]

It was a very iffy 1.070. The pulp/juice mixture was so thick that the hydrometer had a hard time deciding where it wanted to stay. If I let if fall into the tube, it would not get down past about 1.050, if I pushed it all the way in and let it rise out, it sat at 1.035, which is where I calculated my sugar amounts from. I did use a beer/wine table to make the sugar quantity decision though, could that change anything?

Do I need to add anything in the transfer to the second fermenter/carboy?

 

[oldmate]

I'm not sure, I hardly ever use a hydrometer and just go to taste (no one else other than the gf drinks my brews, so I don't have to worry). It should be about right. Maybe a good idea is to give it a swish in the fermenter (with the lid on) and see if it is still thick, if it is, add some pectic enzyme.

On the transfer you can add different flavours if you're not happy, I would say maybe a bit more feijora juice, but I'm not sure how it's going to ferment out in the first place. If you think it needs anything, just add it in. You could also add the pectic enzyme at this stage alternatively, but you risk it being too thick to siphon if you don't add it earlier (that's only if it's still thick).

 

[BoomerCreek]

Hey Laza, give us an update on the taste of this stuff. I have access to tons of them. I can only eat so many but I bet i could drink more.

 

[Lazarescu]

It's still sitting in the primary - I need to take it out but I'm waiting on a new hydrometer before I do.

BoomerCreek: I rekcon you should just go for it. Have you tried the Mount Feijoa and Apple Cider? It's pretty good.

 

[oldmate]

How'd the consistancy end up? I'd say you'd be right to transfer to a secondary now if you have one.

 

[BoomerCreek]

I haven't ever tried any type of feijoa juice. There is just a huge planting of them near my work and I pick them when they are ripe.

 

[Lazarescu]

How'd the consistancy end up? I'd say you'd be right to transfer to a secondary now if you have one.

I'm too scared to look! The fermenter is a beer one and not see through so it's hard to tell. Is it safe to take the lid off and check or should I just drain some from the tap? From what it looks like, there is a lot of sediment at the bottom.

So I siphon from primary to secondary or can I use the tap on the primary and a piece of hose?

I haven't ever tried any type of feijoa juice. There is just a huge planting of them near my work and I pick them when they are ripe.

I didn't notice that you are in California. Here in NZ you can buy feijoa juice off the shelf and there are a number of breweries that make feijoa and apple cider commercially. Some bars also make pure feijoa cider (which is what I was initally trying to emulate).

 

[oldmate]

You can use the tap, but if there is too much sediment it will all clog up. I say try the tap first, if it's alright then just use that. If not, you can siphon with the piece of hosing anyway.

 

[BoomerCreek]

I will give the feijoia cider a whirl. I think they ripen in mid summer here. I'll pick a bunch and press them. I will try to put a posting up when I do this. Thanks for the inspiration Lazarescu.

 

[crusader1612]

"THREAD RESURRECTION"

I'm making something like this... with apple juice feijoa juice off the shelf, then feijoa flesh in secondary.

how did this one go in the end? did you need to add enzyme?
and how much yeast did you add?

 

[JonK331]

How did this turn out? I just ordered 3 trees and will plant them next week. Probably won't get fruit for a couple years but I'm very curious.

 

[Lazarescu]

Sorry for not updating this. So, I can;t remember what I wrote, but I ended up using 600 feijoas and about 6 litres of organic non-pasteurized apple juice as I could not get the thickness out of the feijoas.

But yeah, it didn't turn out that well. I put A LOT of sugar in it in the fermentation process (also, I couldn't read the AV because it was too thick) and more when I bottled it, but it turned out incredibly sour, pretty much undrinkable.

If anyone has any better luck that me, let me know! Maybe I should talk to the local company who actually make it (sans apple) successfully.

 

[crusader1612]

Sorry for not updating this. So, I can;t remember what I wrote, but I ended up using 600 feijoas and about 6 litres of organic non-pasteurized apple juice as I could not get the thickness out of the feijoas.

But yeah, it didn't turn out that well. I put A LOT of sugar in it in the fermentation process (also, I couldn't read the AV because it was too thick) and more when I bottled it, but it turned out incredibly sour, pretty much undrinkable.

If anyone has any better luck that me, let me know! Maybe I should talk to the local company who actually make it (sans apple) successfully.

I tried the same thing, and its turned out pretty sour at the moment. been in a bottle for 3 months so far!

It definitely needs something, how old is your now? will try again in a month or so I'm hoping it'll mellow out a bit...?

 

[roganjoshd]

hey ho, its another feijoa season here in NZ!

I just signed up as I am thinking of attempting using feijoa to flavour a cider so I am wondering how the 2 brews above by Lazarescu and crusader1612 worked out?

 

[crusader1612]

Meh mine didn't work out so well. But that's a process issue and I think I used too many feijoada lol. Mine are still aging good for marinade. Definitely worth a try

 

[SeamusMac]

I've never tried a straight Feijoa cider but I had some Feijoa liquer at Purangi Winery in the Coromandel and MAN OH MAN was it ever good.

Anyways, Old Mout makes their Feijoa and Apple cider by blending Feijoa wine with cider so they can get the "ideal" final product without so much guess work. There are heaps of recipes for Feijoa wine online that are formulated to mellow out the tartness of the fruit and achieve a high ABV so they can be aged longer.

I was only in NZ for a year and never spent more than 6 months in one spot so I couldn't give it a go myself but I believe that blending would be the way to go here. At least that way you can treat the two components individually rather than trying to come to a compromise.

 

[crusader1612]

I've never tried a straight Feijoa cider but I had some Feijoa liquer at Purangi Winery in the Coromandel and MAN OH MAN was it ever good.

Anyways, Old Mout makes their Feijoa and Apple cider by blending Feijoa wine with cider so they can get the "ideal" final product without so much guess work. There are heaps of recipes for Feijoa wine online that are formulated to mellow out the tartness of the fruit and achieve a high ABV so they can be aged longer.

I was only in NZ for a year and never spent more than 6 months in one spot so I couldn't give it a go myself but I believe that blending would be the way to go here. At least that way you can treat the two components individually rather than trying to come to a compromise.

That explains why theirs tastes better than mine.....

 

[waxer]

Ill probably use the wine method for removing the feijoa juice without fermenting. Then either add to secondary or primary depending on what I happen to have available at the time. Got some fresh pressed cider brewing now so Im tempted to add some to make 5l and let it go again.
The wine recipes leave the feijoa in pectic enzyme (acids etc) for 3 days then strain before adding yeast.
I have a bunch thrown in whole (peeled) in a mead right now.

 

[roganjoshd]

ah yes... I had an Old Mout Feijoa and Cider last weekend and was at first bemused that it was called "Feijoa and Cider" but understand better now.
Also, I think technically you cannot create a feijoa cider as it is not an apple!

I'll have to look up a feijoa wine recipe and see if it is worth the hassle to combine with an apple cider base.

cheers!

 

[waxer]

Got 15L of fresh pressed apple juice tonight and a few bags of feijoas given to me so im restricted by timing. I dont have anything spare to make the wine in right now so ill prepare the juice as above and get my cider on now. Then combine in three days once most the solids are racked off the feijoa juice.
Might add just a bit of honey as well as it should go very nice with feijoa.

 

[SeamusMac]

Got 15L of fresh pressed apple juice tonight and a few bags of feijoas given to me so im restricted by timing. I dont have anything spare to make the wine in right now so ill prepare the juice as above and get my cider on now. Then combine in three days once most the solids are racked off the feijoa juice.
Might add just a bit of honey as well as it should go very nice with feijoa.

My experience has been that the honey will ferment almost entirely and is hard to detect in small amounts. It has left the final product proportionately drier than without the honey and upped ABV but it's been difficult to retain any of the honey character. My favorite method for adding honey to ciders is to use honey as the priming sugar during bottling then pasteurizing the cider once it's carbonated to my liking. You'll have to add more honey than would be necessary to carb the cider as you want some sweetness to remain at pasteurization. Just make sure you keep checking carbonation levels and pasteurize the cider as soon as it's to your liking or you'll have created many of zee bottle bombas. Good luck!