Batch Sparging AG Help

[Lumpyyyyy]

Alright guys, I need some help. I've done a lot of reading and thought that I have the process down, but it appears not so much. I've been doing AG for 1.5 years now. I started off with a SS braid, and did alright, rarely hit both OG and volume. I decided to switch over to a False Bottom after far too many stuck sparges and am running into a different issue. I can't hit volume or OG correctly. Maybe someone could debug it for me, because I've gone through 4 different brews messing up and am getting frustrated.

Equipment:
I use a 3 vessel system: Pot(s) for heating water, and two Keggles for MLT and BK. The MLT has a NorCal False Bottom with about 0.81 gallons of deadspace.

I do Batch Sparging, 2 step (I think).

Normal brew day:

1. Calculate all recipes in BeerSmith
2. Heat water to desired strike temp
3. Pour grains into MLT
4. Strike with water from HLT
5. Wait desired mash time/steps
6. Vorlauf about 2 quarts to set grain bed
7. Drain MLT as quickly as possible and add sparge addition
8. Realize I am way over on volume and way under on OG
9. Boil for far too long only to realize I am still under on the OG
10. Add hop schedule
11. Chill and transfer to fermenter.

I know its crude description, but maybe there is something obvious that I am missing that I am not aware of. Any help would be awesome.

 

[gavball6]

First things that come to mind... Keep reducing volume until you hit your target volumes and figure out your new system (keeping in mind grain absorption... I usually use about 0.125 gallons per pound). The other thing I would look at is your crush.

 

[Yooper]

Alright guys, I need some help. I've done a lot of reading and thought that I have the process down, but it appears not so much. I've been doing AG for 1.5 years now. I started off with a SS braid, and did alright, rarely hit both OG and volume. I decided to switch over to a False Bottom after far too many stuck sparges and am running into a different issue. I can't hit volume or OG correctly. Maybe someone could debug it for me, because I've gone through 4 different brews messing up and am getting frustrated.

Equipment:
I use a 3 vessel system: Pot(s) for heating water, and two Keggles for MLT and BK. The MLT has a NorCal False Bottom with about 0.81 gallons of deadspace.

I do Batch Sparging, 2 step (I think).

Normal brew day:

1. Calculate all recipes in BeerSmith
2. Heat water to desired strike temp
3. Pour grains into MLT
4. Strike with water from HLT
5. Wait desired mash time/steps
6. Vorlauf about 2 quarts to set grain bed
7. Drain MLT as quickly as possible and add sparge addition
8. Realize I am way over on volume and way under on OG
9. Boil for far too long only to realize I am still under on the OG
10. Add hop schedule
11. Chill and transfer to fermenter.

I know its crude description, but maybe there is something obvious that I am missing that I am not aware of. Any help would be awesome.

The easy fix is very sinple.

Add step 7.5:

7.5- measure the runnings you have in the kettle. Subtract that amount from the total volume needed. Then add that amount of water as your sparge addition.


It's easiest to hit your desired boil volume if you work backwards. For example, say you want to start with 6.5 gallons for you boil volume. If you mash 10 pounds of grain at 1.5 quarts/pound, that's 15 quarts. Since the grain will absorb approx 1.25 gallons, that will give you 2.5 gallons of first runnings.

If you measure those runnings to make sure, you know you need 4 gallons of sparge water to hit 6.5 gallons. Have a bit more hot and ready, but only use what you need. It's that easy!

 

[acidrain]

Getting the sparge volume is easy.
#1 thing to know is your boil-off rate. This is the only technical bit of information you need.
#2 Strike with a grain-to-water ratio of 1.25 to 2 qrt. / lb of grain (or whatever ratio you want).
#3 Mash, vorauf, collect normally.
#4 (this is important) measure how much volume you collect.
#5 Calculate how much you are short for your pre-boil volume. This is your sparge volume. Easy, right? Divide the sparge volume for multiple sparges if you want.
#6 Sparge.

 

[Lumpyyyyy]

The easy fix is very sinple.

Add step 7.5:

7.5- measure the runnings you have in the kettle. Subtract that amount from the total volume needed. Then add that amount of water as your sparge addition.


It's easiest to hit your desired boil volume if you work backwards. For example, say you want to start with 6.5 gallons for you boil volume. If you mash 10 pounds of grain at 1.5 quarts/pound, that's 15 quarts. Since the grain will absorb approx 1.25 gallons, that will give you 2.5 gallons of first runnings.

If you measure those runnings to make sure, you know you need 4 gallons of sparge water to hit 6.5 gallons. Have a bit more hot and ready, but only use what you need. It's that easy!

Not quite sure why I hadn't thought of that. Seems pretty straight forward.

Also, I have a false bottom with about 3 quarts of space below the FB. Any particular way I should account for this in my calculations?

 

[Yooper]

Not quite sure why I hadn't thought of that. Seems pretty straight forward.

Also, I have a false bottom with about 3 quarts of space below the FB. Any particular way I should account for this in my calculations?

Just add three quarts more to your mash in the beginning, and then forget about it. Stir very very well when you mash in, and when you add your batch sparge water.

A good way to know when you've stirred enough in both processes, take the temperature in at least three different places. If they are different, stir some more. Once the temperature is equalized and there are no doughballs, it's stirred enough. Sometimes a little thing like inadequate stirring is responsible for efficiency losses.

 

[Patirck]

Another few things that improved my mash efficiency:

When douging in, add the water, stir, double check the temp you want is there, then SLOWLY sprinkle in the grains while stirring. This gets all the grains wet from the start as opposed to potentially having dry spots around the mlt.

When draining the mlt into your brew kettle - do it slow, the slower the better. A five gallon batch should take at least 20 minutes to drain your first runnings. The sparge is different - you can drain that fast if you want.

Stir early and often. Try to come up with a consistent "stir schedule". These are the kinds of habits that you build and add to consistency. I stir at dough in, 20 minutes later, 35 minutes and then 50 minutes - assuming a 60 minute mash schedule. Don't be afraid to beat up the grains a little.

If you can, try adding a protein rest, I know it should not be (and isn't) really necessary. I did it when I was using some home malted grains that I wasn't too sure about being "highly modified". I got about 80% efficiency on that batch and have been using it ever since. Beer smith is good at calculating this.

Do you recirculate with a pump? If not, try it.

I know beersmith does it (I use beer smith too) but there are many online calculators for brewing water requirements - the one I like since it really spells it out for you is http://www.brew365.com/mash_sparge_water_calculator.php

One other thing - try a double batch sparge - this is where you drain the kettle of your first runnings and measure to find out you need another 3.5 gallons or what ever, then divide that 3.5 gallons into two separate sparges. The theory is that you rinse more sugar from the grains this way.

 

[diS]

When draining the mlt into your brew kettle - do it slow, the slower the better.

What is the reason of slow draining 1st wort?
I think I read somewhere about it..

 

[AnOldUR]

What is the reason of slow draining 1st wort?
I think I read somewhere about it..

. . . Batch Sparge ≠ Slow Lauter

 

[Lumpyyyyy]

. . . Batch Sparge ≠ Slow Lauter

That was my impression as well, with batch sparge, yoiu want to slowly drain for the vorlauf, as to not compact the grain bed. But after that, it's full steam ahead.

 

[jhalloran]

If you haven't done so, definitely add your mash tun dead space to Beersmith and have it adjust volume for that amount. Worked wonders for me.

 

[curtw]

I'm a total noob with respect to AG. But I wanted to understand the OP's problem better: What was mentioned was

rarely hit both OG and volume

. Are these really two different problems? Or is it just one -- too much volume, which results in too low an OG?

Or am I missing something?

Thanks!

 

[Lumpyyyyy]

I'm a total noob with respect to AG. But I wanted to understand the OP's problem better: What was mentioned was . Are these really two different problems? Or is it just one -- too much volume, which results in too low an OG?

Or am I missing something?

Thanks!

I've hit my OG before, but I had volume too low, and I've hit my Volume with an OG too low. I know it reeks of an efficiency thing, but I thought it could be more than that.

 

[Lumpyyyyy]

If you haven't done so, definitely add your mash tun dead space to Beersmith and have it adjust volume for that amount. Worked wonders for me.

I did, and I thought that could be attributing to my problem because I put 0.75 gallons of deadspace because that's the space under my false bottom. But really my deadspace is the amount not picked up by my dip tube, which is more like 0.2 gallons.

 

[BlindFaith]

The subtraction method works for me (Yooper's suggestion), but another step you should include is measuring your SG while sparging and stop your sparge when you reach your target OG. Another alternative is to simply measure your SG (use a refractometer to save beer) when you hit volume (pre-boil gravity) and then do some simple math to find out what your actual OG will be.

Let's say you are brewing a 5 gal batch with a boil-off rate of 1.5 gal/hr, so you finish your sparge at 6.5 gals. Your SG at 6.5 gals is 1.048, that is all you need to know to calculate your OG.

V1 x C1 = V2 x C2

Your starting volume (V1) of 6.5 gals
Your starting SG collection (C1) of 48 points
Your final volume (V2) of 4 gals
Your unknown OG collection (C2)

6.5(48)= 5(x)

x= 62 points

Your OG @ 5 gals will be 1.062.

You can plan around this to make your beer hit OG even without decent efficiency by calculating the amount of points you will need. You can also anticipate your OG this way and calculate your efficiency (not brewhouse). If you are too low just add some DME at flameout to make it up. DME has 45 points per pound per gallon

1 pound x 45ppg /5 gallons = 9 points

LME has 38ppg

 

[AnOldUR]

. . . another step you should include is measuring your SG while sparging and stop your sparge when you reach your target OG.

I'm confused by this. Do you mean as your adding sparge water, checking the gravity of the liquor in your tun before starting the lauter?

Once all the sparge water has been added, stirred well and drained quickly, the gravity of all the liquor is the same. In theory, if your efficiency number is correct in your software and you end up with too much total wort it will be a lower gravity. If you didn't use enough sparge water, you will have less of a higher gravity wort. In either case, a preboil gravity check will give you the option to adjust your boil time and hop additions to get the results your after. Stopping the lauter before completely drained when doing a batch sparge in usually not necessary.

 

[BlindFaith]

I'm confused by this. Do you mean as your adding sparge water, checking the gravity of the liquor in your tun before starting the lauter?

Once all the sparge water has been added, stirred well and drained quickly, the gravity of all the liquor is the same. In theory, if your efficiency number is correct in your software and you end up with too much total wort it will be a lower gravity. If you didn't use enough sparge water, you will have less of a higher gravity wort. In either case, a preboil gravity check will give you the option to adjust your boil time and hop additions to get the results your after. Stopping the lauter before completely drained when doing a batch sparge in usually not necessary.

There is more than one way to skin a cat. I will always check my wort's SG mid-sparge (after stirring) to see where I am at and if unusually low then I can make the decision on what I want to do next. I can either do as you suggest and adjust boil time/hops (if I have the right amount of hops and time) with a full sparge or I can cut my sparge short at whatever SG I am looking for and just add the needed LME and then top off. When I had efficiency problems I would have to make a decision on which route I wanted to go.