A quick question on oxidation

[Mark_]

I made my first brew ever, turned out to be an all-grain 2 row Pale Ale/Cascade combination and it seems to be going well. Gravity looks good, samples taste promising and I am very happy.

Just for grins I decided to rack it to a secondary halfway through week two, Gravity of 1.010, down from an OG of 1.060. I won't get into the details of why I didn't siphon but I ended up siphoning into a brew bucket, cleaning and sanitizing the glass carboy and then, for reasons I won't get into, pouring it back into the carboy through a sanitized funnel instead of siphoning.

How much danger of oxidation did I just introduce?
Is it a major concern with beer? (I am a wine guy new to this.)
What should I look for if it could be an issue?

I sanitize and rinse well using potassium metabisulfite if that matters.

Thanks folks. I am of the mind that everything is fine but had an excuse to post Thanks guys! (and gals!)

 

[Yooper]

How much danger of oxidation did I just introduce?
Is it a major concern with beer? (I am a wine guy new to this.)
What should I look for if it could be an issue?

Huge risk of oxidation, and a big concern.

You used potassium metabisulfite in the beer? Or just as a sanitizer?

 

[oneandahalfshepherds]

If it tastes like cardboard you will know why

 

[s4l]

If it tastes like cardboard you will know why

Or like metal..

 

[goodgodilovebeer]

Sounds like it went excellent except for the last part. It'll definitely have a cardboard flavour. I had a heavy oxidation character on one of my first batches and I thought I was being careful, so I chalked it up to a learning experience.

 

[Mark_]

Huge risk of oxidation, and a big concern.

You used potassium metabisulfite in the beer? Or just as a sanitizer?

Metabisulfite just as a sanitizer actually!

That's disappointing about the oxygen. Is there anything I can do to counteract? Does it matter that I put a co2 layer in the carboy before putting it back in? (I forgot to say that)

To what certainty did I just ruin things?

 

[LovesIPA]

Honestly, we have no way of knowing. Yes, it was bad to not siphon, but the CO2 blanket would have helped negate some of the effects. How it will taste is impossible to predict. You can only learn from your mistake, brew another batch, and choke this one down or dump it if you don't like it.

 

[Mark_]

Honestly, we have no way of knowing. Yes, it was bad to not siphon, but the CO2 blanket would have helped negate some of the effects. How it will taste is impossible to predict. You can only learn from your mistake, brew another batch, and choke this one down or dump it if you don't like it.

Thanks for the honesty, I hate the message but appreciate the input. I guess I'll move onto my next batch and hope for the best.

Funny thing was I created a crack in my siphon line, a connector was brittle and cracked, introducing air into the line after I had it in the bucket. I didn't want to aerate the brew with my broken line by siphoning it back in. I didn't think the funnel would cause more of a problem.

Time to fix the siphon! Again, thanks folks!

 

[LovesIPA]

If it makes you feel any better, I ruined a batch the same way. Broken racking cane, air bubbles into the beer.

 

[Mark_]

If it makes you feel any better, I ruined a batch the same way. Broken racking cane, air bubbles into the beer.

It does actually, thank you. Did you drink it?

 

[jwplessner]

You can still do a few things to help. You can slow down aging processes, including production of oxidative off flavors, by keeping the beer at steady temperatures, the colder the better in this case. If you're kegging, you can purge and purge again to eliminate further o2 addition. I don't want to make a bottling recommendation since I'm really bad at it.

Finally, of course, you can try to drink the beer before potential aging problems creep in.

 

[Mark_]

You can still do a few things to help. You can slow down aging processes, including production of oxidative off flavors, by keeping the beer at steady temperatures, the colder the better in this case. If you're kegging, you can purge and purge again to eliminate further o2 addition. I don't want to make a bottling recommendation since I'm really bad at it.

Finally, of course, you can try to drink the beer before potential aging problems creep in.

To be clear, this is only a two gallon batch, experimental, of only 2 row pale and cascade. I can probably bottle in another week or so and then let it sit in the fridge for a few weeks. Will it start to oxidize and gain that cardboard taste that quickly?

 

[goodgodilovebeer]

2 gallons?! That's a good friday night right there.
Carbonate it and drink it quickly.

 

[Mark_]

2 gallons?! That's a good friday night right there.
Carbonate it and drink it quickly.

A man after my own heart, it's a deal! Maybe I can salvage this mess.

 

[Demus]

+1 to carbing and drinking ASAP. 1.010 should be your terminal gravity. This is a great thread to demonstrate one reason NOT to secondary. Why risk it???

 

[orangehero]

If you feed the yeast they may be able to scavenge some of that O2.

 

[Mark_]

+1 to carbing and drinking ASAP. 1.010 should be your terminal gravity. This is a great thread to demonstrate one reason NOT to secondary. Why risk it???

To be fair though if I had done it right it wouldn't have been an issue

 

[Demus]

To be fair though if I had done it right it wouldn't have been an issue

True statement, but what would you have gained? I gave up secondary two years ago and am pleased with my results. And unless you have a conical fermentor or some sort of sealed system using Co2, you WILL expose your beer to at least some oxygen. So again I ask, why risk it? You've seen the risk, what's the reward?

 

[Mark_]

True statement, but what would you have gained? I gave up secondary two years ago and am pleased with my results. And unless you have a conical fermentor or some sort of sealed system using Co2, you WILL expose your beer to at least some oxygen. So again I ask, why risk it? You've seen the risk, what's the reward?

I am agreeing with you at this point!

 

[LovesIPA]

It does actually, thank you. Did you drink it?

Yes I did... funny story, too. I bought a twelve pack of Shocktop midnight wheat and SWMBO and I both hated it. However, when mixed 50/50 with oxidized beer, it wasn't half bad. We tried mixing it with some other commercial and homebrew beers with ok to good results and eventually got through it.

I was happy when that keg kicked though!

 

[Ridire]

I have a very oxidized IPA I bottled a little over a month ago. It is horrible...but I refuse to pour out a drop of it. I will sneak one in between good beers every now and again to get rid of it.

 

[Mark_]

I have a very oxidized IPA I bottled a little over a month ago. It is horrible...but I refuse to pour out a drop of it. I will sneak one in between good beers every now and again to get rid of it.

It's my FIRST BREW ever. As a matter of pride I will have to drink it, good or bad. I am with you! That'll teach me to screw it up

Thank you for the aging advice from everyone. On paper I upped the gravity by .010 by adding 80mg of sugar to the 2 gallons of brew and will let it eat up some that O2. Hopefully that will be enough to stabilize again. In the meantime I will be getting my siphon repaired/replaced and preparing for bottling!

Next brew will be Ed Wort's Haus Pale Ale. If it is half as good as his Apfelwein recipe it will be a keeper. (I am ripping through my Apfelwein WAY too quickly.)

 

[Yooper]

It's my FIRST BREW ever. As a matter of pride I will have to drink it, good or bad. I am with you! That'll teach me to screw it up

Thank you for the aging advice from everyone. On paper I upped the gravity by .010 by adding 80mg of sugar to the 2 gallons of brew and will let it eat up some that O2. Hopefully that will be enough to stabilize again. In the meantime I will be getting my siphon repaired/replaced and preparing for bottling!

Next brew will be Ed Wort's Haus Pale Ale. If it is half as good as his Apfelwein recipe it will be a keeper. (I am ripping through my Apfelwein WAY too quickly.)

That will help fill up any headspace to prevent further oxidation, but once oxygen binds to the beer, more co2 can't "unbind" it. That's why winemakers use k-meta, as it binds to the wine so that oxygen during racking can't.

Headspace and splashing are a big concern after fermentation slows in beer, just as in winemaking.

 

[Mark_]

That will help fill up any headspace to prevent further oxidation, but once oxygen binds to the beer, more co2 can't "unbind" it. That's why winemakers use k-meta, as it binds to the wine so that oxygen during racking can't.

Headspace and splashing are a big concern after fermentation slows in beer, just as in winemaking.

Thank you Yooper. Those are the pieces I am missing. I have only worked on wine so don't know the equivalent info on the brewing side... yet. I am slowly gathering it through reading as well as these wonderful forums. Thank you!

This actually reinforces quite heavily the idea of not moving to secondary. Once primary fermentation finishes, the headspace will be primarily CO2 which will prevent oxidation. By racking to Secondary you are eliminating the CO2 blanket in the headspace. Man, I wish I had known. Thank goodness it is only two gallons!

 

[Ridire]

That will help fill up any headspace to prevent further oxidation, but once oxygen binds to the beer, more co2 can't "unbind" it. That's why winemakers use k-meta, as it binds to the wine so that oxygen during racking can't.

Headspace and splashing are a big concern after fermentation slows in beer, just as in winemaking.

If secondary is necessary (for whatever reason) and the only vessel available is a 6.5 gallon carboy (5 gallon batch), what do you suggest? Will this stuff work? If so, wouldn't it take a **** ton of it to correct for a 1.5 gallon headspace?

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0000DCS18/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

With my bad IPA, I introduced a lot of oxygen due to a stuck siphon, but I also let it sit for 3 weeks with 1.5 gallons of headspace in a secondary...did not realize the problem with doing so. Next attempt will not involve a secondary.

 

[STEVESKI]

Bottle them and drink them after you've already knocked back 4-5 good beers. You'll hardly be able to tell a difference.

 

[Mark_]

If secondary is necessary (for whatever reason) and the only vessel available is a 6.5 gallon carboy (5 gallon batch), what do you suggest? Will this stuff work? If so, wouldn't it take a **** ton of it to correct for a 1.5 gallon headspace?

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0000DCS18/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

With my bad IPA, I introduced a lot of oxygen due to a stuck siphon, but I also let it sit for 3 weeks with 1.5 gallons of headspace in a secondary...did not realize the problem with doing so. Next attempt will not involve a secondary.

When it comes to wine and headspace, I have always used my sodastream machine with a hose hooked up to it to inject a blanket of CO2 on top when I have too much headspace. I would agree it is definitely a problem with wine, and of course I am now finding it is even moreso with beer!

 

[STEVESKI]

If secondary is necessary (for whatever reason) and the only vessel available is a 6.5 gallon carboy (5 gallon batch), what do you suggest? Will this stuff work? If so, wouldn't it take a **** ton of it to correct for a 1.5 gallon headspace?

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0000DCS18/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

With my bad IPA, I introduced a lot of oxygen due to a stuck siphon, but I also let it sit for 3 weeks with 1.5 gallons of headspace in a secondary...did not realize the problem with doing so. Next attempt will not involve a secondary.

Don't most people use the 6.5 gallon buckets as primaries for their 5 gallon batches? I know I do. I've been letting all my beers ferment for 3 weeks before bottling and they all have 1.5 gallons of headspace. I've only done 4 batches, but I've had no issues yet.

If anything, your argument is FOR racking to a 5 gallon secondary and one of the only legit reasons I've heard for using a secondary. Is leaving headspace really that bad?

 

[Ridire]

Don't most people use the 6.5 gallon buckets as primaries for their 5 gallon batches? I know I do. I've been letting all my beers ferment for 3 weeks before bottling and they all have 1.5 gallons of headspace. I've only done 4 batches, but I've had no issues yet.

If anything, your argument is FOR racking to a 5 gallon secondary and one of the only legit reasons I've heard for using a secondary. Is leaving headspace really that bad?

I think you miss my point. If I use a 6.5 gallon Ale Pail as a primary, leaving a bunch of headspace, the headspace is no issue because there is no oxygen in there after fermentation...only CO2.

If I then rack to another vessel that has a lot of headspace (6.5 gallon carboy), I then have all that headspace and no CO2 being produced to push the oxygen out.

 

[STEVESKI]

I think you miss my point. If I use a 6.5 gallon Ale Pail as a primary, leaving a bunch of headspace, the headspace is no issue because there is no oxygen in there after fermentation...only CO2.

If I then rack to another vessel that has a lot of headspace (6.5 gallon carboy), I then have all that headspace and no CO2 being produced to push the oxygen out.

Ahh ok, I did miss that. Phew!

 

[Mark_]

And one further point I found was "The generally accepted temperature cutoff for preventing (hot) wort oxidation is 80F". I am assuming that oxidation is less likely to occur below 80F. If that is true I might be ok? I keep ambient temperatures around 70-72F.

Just saying

 

[Ridire]

I did that with both of my first two beers. The third batch, first beer I just left alone in primary until bottling day, is just about 3 weeks in the bottles now. I am hoping the lack of secondary makes a difference. The first beer turned out pretty good but it was a dark beer (porter). The lighter beer (IPA) is horrendous, despite looking and smelling great.

Moral is that I will not rack to secondary again unless there is a damn good reason to do so. But what if there is a good reason? I want to use my 6.5 gallon carboy but do not want all that headspace. That is why I'm wondering about that inert gas designed to preserve wine bottles.

 

[sloanb27]

...How much danger of oxidation did I just introduce?
Is it a major concern with beer? (I am a wine guy new to this.)
What should I look for if it could be an issue?

I sanitize and rinse well using potassium metabisulfite if that matters.

Thanks folks. I am of the mind that everything is fine but had an excuse to post Thanks guys! (and gals!)

In the future, you can have a 2 liter of soda water on standby. What you do is put a large balloon around the top and shake, filling the balloon with C02. Then, when you are ready, SLOWLY release the gas into your empty container all while doing this with no breeze/wind, cap the container and let sit for about a minute. THEN using your siphon, transfer your beer. I used this trick before i had kegging equipment...although very crude...works. Never had a single batch of oxidized beer.

When you have a CO2 canister, obviously you just get in the habit of filling head space all the time between transfers of any kind.

Hope this helps!

 

[Yooper]

And one further point I found was "The generally accepted temperature cutoff for preventing (hot) wort oxidation is 80F". I am assuming that oxidation is less likely to occur below 80F. If that is true I might be ok? I keep ambient temperatures around 70-72F.

Just saying

Well.................you're talking about hot side aeration there. That's a debated topic, as to if it even exists at the homebrew level. But that's not the same thing as accidental aeration/oxidation.

HSA is supposed to occur with any agitation of hot wort. But after the wort is cooled, aeration is good. The yeast use oxygen to reproduce, before they begin anaerobic fermentation. Once anaerobic fermentation begins, and thereafter, you want to prevent oxygenating the beer.

Since the products of fermentation are c02+ ethanol, there is plenty of co2 being produced to prevent oxidation in the fermenter during that time. It's later, when fermentation slows that oxidation is a risk to beer (and wine).

Winemakers routinely use potassium metabisulfite as an antioxidant, often at 50 ppm, to prevent oxidation to the wine. It's still important to not oxygenate the wine after fermentation of course, but sulfites help greatly.

For beer, a huge headspace in a clearing vessel ("secondary") can be a real risk of oxidation as can splashing or not racking carefully.

Many many beers have slight signs of oxidation. It's not always bad- think of a big barleywine that is three years old. It will have sherry notes often, which is a sign of oxidation. In competitions I've judged, many beers exhibit signs of oxidation. But usually oxidation isn't too bad in a young beer (even one that was poured into a clearing vessel), so drink it fast and it will probably be very tasty! It's only with aging that it will get worse.

 

[Mark_]

That makes MUCH sense, thank you!

This is why I didn't realize what an impact oxidation had. Coming from the wine side of things I didn't worry about it half as much due to my potassium metabisulfite usage.

You folks rock

 

[Demus]

Remember, secondary is NEVER a NECESSARY step. It does have some debatable advantages, but at the home brewer level it's my firm opinion that they are vastly outweighed by risks such as the subject of this thread...

 

[Mark_]

And the verdict is in, you guys and gals totally called it. I checked it this morning and I am definitely smelling some soggy cardboard! Awesome! My first botched brew Ok, now that I got THAT over with I am going to do it the right way

 

[goodgodilovebeer]

Live & learn. Whether or not they'd admit it, everyone has messed up on at least one batch. On the bright side, at least it wasn't a big lager that you had conditioning for 6 months.

 

[oneandahalfshepherds]

Live & learn. Whether or not they'd admit it, everyone has messed up on at least one batch. On the bright side, at least it wasn't a big lager that you had conditioning for 6 months.

Amen