Beersmith efficiency?

[Queequeg]

Can someone explain to me the difference between Est mash eff and Tot brewhouse eff.?

and why mash eff is estimated and not set by the user?

I did some google searching but couldn't understand what tot eff is. I understand mash efficiency but don't see how the two relate.

Thanks

 

[fuzzy2133]

I think total efficiency is supposed to be the volume you get to keep from mash to what is bottled.

Edit: not sure I am right...
http://beersmith.com/blog/2008/10/26/brewhouse-efficiency-for-all-grain-beer-brewing/

 

[jbaysurfer]

Brewhouse efficiency=how much finished beer you get from the ingredients and equipment you use.

Mash efficiency= how many sugars you extract from the grain you mash.

The second will always be higher then the first, unless you have your equipment profiles set up for no equipment losses whatsoever, then they'll be the same.

 

[Queequeg]

I don't understand how it can be volume loss. The dead space(s) are set in your equipment profile separately from your brewhouse eff. Surely if brewhouse eff was simply volume then it would be a fixed value set by the various other parameters related to volume, deadspaces, grain absorption etc.

Also If I change the brewhouse eff value none of the volumes under the mash tab or volumes tab change, yet despite Est. pre boil volume remaining the same the gravity units for est. pre boil gravity change. This indicates that it is some how related to mash efficiency.

I don't know why you would need to have an eff value for volumes since all volume losses are recorded seperately in beersmith.

 

[Queequeg]

Reading the article you linked fuzzy it would seem that brewhouse eff is just eff but using final volumes and gravities as opposed to pre boil volume and gravities.

I really don't see the purpose of brewhouse eff.

Edit: since I can't change the mash eff value, I have had to alter my batch size so that the pre boil volume is the same (because my yeild from the mash was diffferent) and then lower the brewhouse eff until the pre boil gravity is the same as my readings from brewday. The make note of the eff.

Currently this averages 66% from my last two brews, whilst my mash eff is at approx. 75-80%. Beersmith underestimates my mash eff but since I don't really understand what brewhouse eff is measuring I can only take its word for it.

 

[drb1215]

From a thread on the BeerSmith forum:

http://www.beersmith.com/forum/index.php/topic,10023.msg41515.html#msg41515

Brewhouse efficiency is simply the percentage total sugars available that actually get into the fermenter.

Here is a working calculation for BHE. It's simple and direct and will get you into the ballpark for BeerSmith predictions.

BHE = (Sg x BV) / (Pg x GW)

BHE: Brew House Efficiency
Sg: Wort Specific Gravity, post chill (or post boil)
BV: Batch Volume, as measured in the fermenter
Pg: Potential gravity of grain (found by double clicking the ingredient, but 39 is a good starting number)
GW: Grain Weight

This formula simply divides the gravity points yielded into the fermenter by the total gravity point potential of grain (or extract or sugars) used.

As with all gravity calculations, the specific gravity 1.0 is dropped (1.040 becomes 40).

 

[Kingbogart]

Here is a picture of what's going on.

Your mash efficiency is the percentage of sugars from the maximum possible. From that point, it can no longer go up. From that point on, calculating your BHE becomes a volume related equation based on how much of that sugar you get to keep.

 

[Queequeg]

Thank's Kingbogart. Quick questions

How is BV defined exactly. In my setup the post boil volume is not the same as what goes into the fermenter. There is about 3L lost in the brew kettle/pump/tubing and chiller. So does BS use the fermenter volume or the post boil volume? If it used fermenter volume wouldn't it be calculating the total gravity of the brew wrong, being that the gravity reading is conditional on the final volume and not an aliquot of that volume.

Next; is Pg the same as Ppg?

Also why is my pre boil gravity reading affected when I change BHE?

 

[jbaysurfer]

From a thread on the BeerSmith forum:

http://www.beersmith.com/forum/index.php/topic,10023.msg41515.html#msg41515

Brewhouse efficiency is simply the percentage total sugars available that actually get into the fermenter.

Thank you. OP, this is what I basically tried to explain. Don't over think it. Just go make some beer.

I do apologize for invoking equipment losses as that only confused the issue.

Edit: also, if you change the BH efficiency, click on another tab and go back to the design tab to see the est. Mash efficiency change too.

 

[Queequeg]

^^Thanks

 

[Kingbogart]

I believe beerSmith is fermenter. I don't believe it would have the gravity points wrong using fermenter volume since the gravity should be homogeneous. In your case, you would have say 5.5gal of 1.050 in the kettle. This is still going to be 1.050 in the fermenter, but now it's 3L less. If you were to get every drop out of your kettle, then your BHE would be equal to your Mash Efficiency. The easiest way to do that is to pour your entire kettle into your fermenter, hops and all.

BeerSmith uses your efficiency with your profile to calculate backwards, using your losses to guesstimate the other information. If you say you get BHE of 70%, if adds back your hop losses, adds back your boil off volume, adds back your deadspace and calculates your est. preboil volume necessary to hit that number. It then tells you your estimated Mash efficiency needed to get there.

Your preboil estimate will change based on your BHE again because of Beersmith. Using your losses in the calculator it has a general idea of your likely mash efficiency based on your total efficiency. BHE can never be higher than Mash efficiency, and will be reduced by losses. Those losses as a percent is the difference between the two.

 

[Queequeg]

I don't really get that then Kingogart as there is no loss of gravity or concentration of wort volume between the end of the boil and the fermenter, there is simply loss of volume as what goes into the fermenter is a subaquilot of the pre boil volume. I think the calc. should be based on post boil volume (assuming no top water is added) because of the relationship between gravity units and volume. i.e gravity units x volume(preboil) =gravity units x volume (postboil). The gravity of the wort post boil will be the same as in the fermenter yet volume will be less, hence messing with the calc.

Beersmith doesn't adjust pre boil volume with eff. I just checked. Preboil volume only changes when you manually change the boil off rate, deadspace, trub loss values themselves. If you adjust eff the SG of the final beer changes and the pre boil gravity changes. I appreciate it must back calculate that now, though this seems redundant given that you have mash eff.

What I don't understand is where are the losses in eff coming from compared to the mash eff? There is no where for the sugars to go between the start of your boil and the end. Granted volumes change, but total gravity i.e gravity units x volume stays the same. Hence the reason why when you change pre boil gravity, SG must change providing your volumes are constant.

So why is there two different values for eff? Where is the loss

 

[Queequeg]

I think I have just realized the difference.

Mash eff: the % of potential sugars in the grain that end up in your mash runnings. So represents the eff of extraction.

Brewhouse eff: the % of potential sugars in the grain that end up in your fermenter, which includes losses due to volume. It is therefore effected by mash eff, but will also be partly effected by volume loss because that volume contains sugars that don't end up in your fermenter.

Is that correct? in which case losses of sugars due to volume loss don't effect SG but will effect your eff

This is right?

 

[Kingbogart]

Yes. Mash Efficiency is how much potential sugar you were able to get out of the grain in percent. After that point, no more sugar will be added or removed. But losses in volume, due to hop absorption, or kettle dead space will reduce the amount in volume you get, and therefore the amount of sugars, and that means lower of the potential sugar makes it to the fermenter.

Basically if you have 5.5 gallons of wort at 1.050, and 5 gallons at 1.050, they have the same SG, but....the 5.5 gallons has 275 pts where as the 5 gallons only has 250. The other points didn't boil off, they are stuck in your hops, or your kettle. But your overall efficiency is lower because you weren't able to collect that potential.

 

[Queequeg]

Gotcha thanks for the help with this. I finally understand.

 

[dantheman13]

Can someone explain to me the difference between Est mash eff and Tot brewhouse eff.?

and why mash eff is estimated and not set by the user?

I did some google searching but couldn't understand what tot eff is. I understand mash efficiency but don't see how the two relate.

Thanks

It seems your question is answered, but this might be a useful thread for you as well:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f84/beersmith-2-2-how-calculate-efficiency-447692/