What Saison Water Profiles Have You Had Success With?

[Clint04]

I am brewing a Saison soon, and am unsure what sort of water profile I should target. I use 100% distilled water with additions.

Are there any particular water profiles that you've had success with in a saison? I was thinking about adding a bit of CaCl up to 50-75 ppm, then maybe a touch of Gypsum, with acid malt for pH....

Thanks!

 

[MNDan]

No need for gypsum - I just use CaCl to get the Calcium up to 85 ppm in the mash, then adjust the pH the rest of the way with lactic acid.

 

[mabrungard]

I say that less than 75 ppm sulfate will be desirable in a Saison, but do recognize that the best examples are somewhat bitter and quite hoppy. For the most part, sulfate is typically 50 ppm or less in many Belgian brewing waters. But you do want a little sulfate in the water to help dry the finish...especially in good Saison's which do have a dry finish. I suggest that a sulfate level in the 25 to 50 ppm range would be appropriate. The chloride level will be similar. Very low to no Mg and Na is desirable, so if starting with distilled water, there is no need to add those ions.

You definitely want the mash pH to be on the low side...5.2 to 5.4. That will help accentuate the tartness. Lactic acid is a good idea since it adds its flavor, which I feel compliments the flavor of this beer.

 

[Clint04]

Thanks for the help guys. Right now, I'm looking at the "yellow balanced" profile on Bru'n water and shooting for that.

Martin, I have Lactic Acid, but was probably going to use 3oz or so of Acid Malt in the mash.

 

[TrickyDick]

I say that less than 75 ppm sulfate will be desirable in a Saison, but do recognize that the best examples are somewhat bitter and quite hoppy. For the most part, sulfate is typically 50 ppm or less in many Belgian brewing waters. But you do want a little sulfate in the water to help dry the finish...especially in good Saison's which do have a dry finish. I suggest that a sulfate level in the 25 to 50 ppm range would be appropriate. The chloride level will be similar. Very low to no Mg and Na is desirable, so if starting with distilled water, there is no need to add those ions.

You definitely want the mash pH to be on the low side...5.2 to 5.4. That will help accentuate the tartness. Lactic acid is a good idea since it adds its flavor, which I feel compliments the flavor of this beer.

Did a search on "Saison Water" on HBT, and found 5 threads, including this one, with TOTAL of 10 replies on all the thread, but over 10,000 combined views. Funny..

In the book about Farmhouse Ales and Saisons (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0937381845/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20)
they gave a water profile for Saisons which was quite different:
Ca-52
Mg-17
Na-35
SO4-107
Cl-20
HCO3-350
pH7.2
Total Hardness 454

This seems like a very strange water profile to try and brew with and achieve appropriate mash pH, especially with all the Bicarb. I am not sure what to shoot for myself. I use RO water to build up from there. I always have to add minerals to achieve proper Calcium levels. The yeast Nutrient I add I believe contains Magnesium, but this seems like a LOT of Magnesium. Also the Total Hardness value doesn't seem to jive with the given mineral levels. I'm thinking to avoid this water profile, and shooting for something else, but what?

Any comments Martin, about the other levels and ranges given from the book? I know that you've de-bunked published water levels versus brewing water actually used in historic brewing cities (and enjoy reading the Zymurgy articles you've written).

TD

 

[mchrispen]

I have used the Farmhouse Ales profile on three different saisons. Two scored over 36 in competitions, with one getting a 41 from a National ranked BJCP judge... the last is in a barrel aging. Common comments mentioned that a bit more sourness or tartness on the finish might be desirable.

I think the trick here is that the 100 ppm sulfate level accents the dryness of the beer, and treats the noble hops with a little roughness. For the record, I matched only the sulfate and chloride levels, and mashed low - around 5.2. Reading through the book - there also appears some room for maltier and more rounded saisons however.

 

[mabrungard]

I do like those levels for a Saison:

Ca-52
Mg-17
Na-35
SO4-107
Cl-20
HCO3-350

However, the bicarbonate level would represent the raw water and not what you should brew with. A combination of decarbonation by boiling (to reduce the temporary hardness) and mash acid addition would have been what good brewers would have done with that water. Because that profile is calcium-limited, it cannot be decarbonated very well and the bicarbonate content will still be fairly high after pre-boiling that water. That means that a substantial part of the mashing process would include either adding acid, acid malt, or acid resting the mash to neutralize the remainder of the bicarbonate and enable the mash pH to drop into a desirable range. Since Saison is a crisp and tart style, the large amount of lactic acid needed to neutralize that 200+ ppm of bicarb is probably going to be present as a taste component. I would not be surprised to find that a part of the beer's flavor profile. Come to think of it, I'd say that Saison Dupont does have a slight lactic note. Yummy!

 

[TrickyDick]

Thanks!

While awaiting a response, I thought about this:

Calcium, Magnesium Sodium Sulfate Chloride Bicarbonate
54 8 8 77 60 15

Apparently, the highly successful formula from the book is pretty good, so maybe I'll revise my plan.

I'm wondering, since they would probably have to boil the water, as you've said, what the actual brewing liquor mineral content might be, or how to predict/estimate what it would be. Since I use RO water, I'm certainly not going to try and replicate the pre-boiled water additions, then boil it, before brewing. I typically add acid malt to adjust mash pH and phosphoric acid to adjust the sparge pH (Using Martin's really awesome spreadsheet). Lately its been a bit off in predicting pH, but I've been using a different RO water that hasn't been tested yet so I am making an assumption its close to the old RO system I had been using (water is being sent to lab tomorrow).

Thanks!

TD

(need to donate for the upgraded version of the SS, been loving it and using it a lot! - ought to see about a Beersmith plugin because the water profile system there isn't as good, and its tedious to try to use both)

edit- donation sent! Thanks!

 

[zwiller]

Saison on deck tomorrow. I use a similar water profile as posted. I have see more than a few posts that indicate the saisons are mashed with higher than typical pH. Say 5.5-5.6. Typically, I would aim lower around 5.3-5.4 for the bright/crisp thing, anyone have input or a preference?

 

[mchrispen]

I think it depends on your goals. A common judging comment on my saisons is the desire for a more tart finish. To that end, I mash lower toward 5.2/5.3, and try to use lactic for a bit more flavor contribution over phosphoric.

 

[zwiller]

Thanks Matt. Think I will lower it to 5.3. Not sure where the mash pH higher thing came from.

 

[TrickyDick]

Hope my lactic acid arrives soon. Yeah, I always shoot for 5.2-5.3 pH. There has been a shift in my water recently, and the labs aren't back yet, so I'm sort of guessing on my mineral content to a degree. I have been reserving the acid malt until after mash in,then add half what I think I would normally require, and recheck. I've been surprised a few times lately, so I'm really anxious about getting the new report.
Appreciate the feedback on the water profile.


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[TrickyDick]

Well after some troubling issues getting pH probe calibrated, I ended up with mash pH 5.25.
Boil kettle I had wonderful flakes of hot break as well.
Ended up away overshooting my OG, by about 10 points. Not sure what happened here.
Think the grist was like 20.25 lbs pils, 1 pound flaked barley (was supposed to be flaked wheat but I didn't have any on hand like I thought I did, so what the heck). Acid malt to adjust pH. Kinda a guessing gone until I get water report back. Used a couple handfuls of crushed acid malt, probably 2-3 oz. refractometer said 1.063 OG about 9.5 maybe 9.75 tops, gallons worth in fermenter. Had to extend boil and mash because of rainy weather. Does that seem like a crazy high efficiency? Lost some additional wort, probably 2 quarts worth in equipment. Added my whole volume of starter (1.037 OG when it started) 4500ml
Fermenting on porch out of sunlight, here is high 70's, hopefully into some 80's temps.

TD


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[trentm]

I do like those levels for a Saison:

Ca-52
Mg-17
Na-35
SO4-107
Cl-20
HCO3-350

However, the bicarbonate level would represent the raw water and not what you should brew with. A combination of decarbonation by boiling (to reduce the temporary hardness) and mash acid addition would have been what good brewers would have done with that water. Because that profile is calcium-limited, it cannot be decarbonated very well and the bicarbonate content will still be fairly high after pre-boiling that water. That means that a substantial part of the mashing process would include either adding acid, acid malt, or acid resting the mash to neutralize the remainder of the bicarbonate and enable the mash pH to drop into a desirable range. Since Saison is a crisp and tart style, the large amount of lactic acid needed to neutralize that 200+ ppm of bicarb is probably going to be present as a taste component. I would not be surprised to find that a part of the beer's flavor profile. Come to think of it, I'd say that Saison Dupont does have a slight lactic note. Yummy!

For years I have been trying to perfect my Saison without success. I think it is lacking tartness. I do use lactic acid to adjust my mash from around 5.6 to 5.2 using 4 to 5 ml. Recently I have been considering raising the alkalinity of the mash water in order to increase the amount of lactic acid that can be added to the mash without lowering the pH below 5.2. However, using baking soda to increase the alkalinity quickly brings the sodium level out of range. Here is the mineral content of my water:

Sodium, Na 32
Potassium, K < 1
Calcium, Ca 11
Magnesium, Mg 7
Total Hardness, CaCO3 57
Nitrate, NO3-N 3.3 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 3
Chloride, Cl 44
Carbonate, CO3 < 1
Bicarbonate, HCO3 55
Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 45
Total Phosphorus, P 0.16
Total Iron, Fe 0.06

Is it possible to raise the alkalinity of this water to >200 without throwing other minerals out of brewing range?

 

[TrickyDick]

What about using slaked lime?


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[zwiller]

+1

You could probably use pickling lime and do that. Might elevate Ca but I don't think that's a bad thing. I do not care for lactic acid though. I have often thought of trying winemakers acid blend on a saison. You know, it's wine country and all...

Just passing this along... When I first got into saisons someone suggested 3726 (blaugies) to me. I owe that dude big time... Incredible yeast.

 

[trentm]

What about using slaked lime?


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Thanks! I see that as pickling lime in Bruin Water. Looks like I can make that work great.

 

[TrickyDick]

I used a little in my saison. I used the Gigayeast strain, which they said is a blend of Belgian and French strains. Who knows which. Trying to ferment high, but temps here are not cooperating. Hopefully it gets nice and HOT today and I get into the 90's!



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[mchrispen]

Don't be afraid of going lower than 5.2 into the BK. I recently took a quart of wort, soured overnight on an ounce of acid malt, strained and boiled, and added about 2 cups of it into the 11 gallon saison boil. My biggest concern was hop utilization, so I used a bit more hops. The soured wort smelled awful and tasted the same... So I used just a little. I should have measured PH in both, but was lazy. Final pH of the saison finished righty at 4, just a hair below a similar recipe without the lactic wort.

Final wort was pretty tangy and that dropped a bit in a very vigorous fermentation. Gravity finished a bit lower, but might be from a repitch slurry.


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[TrickyDick]

Pretty interesting. I think you get better hot break with lower BK pH, or seems to me by the seat of my pants. Could simply be my mash or malt selection. Finally got water report and is very close to distilled. Significantly less RA than what I'd been using before, so that's probably why my pH predictions were off. Supposed to check the gravity on mine tonight, but family is coming over so I probably will not have a chance

Getting a bit off topic now, but.. Once this is finished, I'd like to either bottle condition, or keg condition (not force carbonate). I admire the few Prairie artisan ales saisons I've tasted,and I hear that they dry hop, and that they also use Brett and wine yeast to bottle condition. I have some Brett on hand for this purpose. Any strain that'd be best? I was thinking to use a small amount of dry wine yeast, plus 1-2 vials of Brett, probably B & C, and rack beer into bucket or keg once it hits FG. Since I haven't measured it, I don't know where it's at right now. I've read that saison strain can be super attenuative, so I'm not sure what will be left for the carbonation/conditioning, and I'll probably have to add probably some corn sugar. Since this is my first saison, and the secondary conditioning in bottle or keg is going to be a mixed fermentation, I'm in unfamiliar territory. Any general suggestions, or should I just go with basic bottle priming rules on this one?

TD


edit-

the new water report. really happy with this one.

pH 7.1
TDS 13
Na 2
K <1
Ca 2
Mg <1
Total Hardness CaCO3 5
NO3 0.1
S04 <1
Cl 1
CO3 <1
HCO3 4
Total Alkalinity as CaCO3 3
Phos <0.01
Fe <0.01

Pretty much can brew about anything with this.

 

[millsbrew]

How'd this turn out? I use RO water too. Using Lime for Ca and Bicarbonate.

Thanks.

Thanks!

While awaiting a response, I thought about this:

Calcium, Magnesium Sodium Sulfate Chloride Bicarbonate
54 8 8 77 60 15

Apparently, the highly successful formula from the book is pretty good, so maybe I'll revise my plan.

I'm wondering, since they would probably have to boil the water, as you've said, what the actual brewing liquor mineral content might be, or how to predict/estimate what it would be. Since I use RO water, I'm certainly not going to try and replicate the pre-boiled water additions, then boil it, before brewing. I typically add acid malt to adjust mash pH and phosphoric acid to adjust the sparge pH (Using Martin's really awesome spreadsheet). Lately its been a bit off in predicting pH, but I've been using a different RO water that hasn't been tested yet so I am making an assumption its close to the old RO system I had been using (water is being sent to lab tomorrow).

Thanks!

TD

(need to donate for the upgraded version of the SS, been loving it and using it a lot! - ought to see about a Beersmith plugin because the water profile system there isn't as good, and its tedious to try to use both)

edit- donation sent! Thanks!

 

[TrickyDick]

Saison turned out fantastic!

TD