Anyone hard-piped their whirlpool inlet?

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ParanoidAndroid

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Ive been trying to get some items together for my MT and BK and came across the Jamil Whirlpool method. I like it and intend on doing it. Most of the setups I see involve just having a inlet copper tube sitting in between the immersion chiller inlet/outlet. Has anyone hardpiped the inlet portion of the cycle? I understand most have the side tube hardwired (the one that actually swirls the wort) and then the side pick up tube for transfering.
 
bargain fittings sells the whirlpool kits. you just need a weldless bulkhead, 90, & valve..

http://www.bargainfittings.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=46&product_id=151

wpool.jpg


i am guessing that is what you are talking about.. i have two of these installed on my BK, one for side pickup at the very bottom, and one about halfway up for a whirlpool inlet with the tubes are pointed away from each other. works great.
 
I think I may be confused on some stuff.

Is this how it is setup, or am I off:

-A bulkhead is installed about halfway up the keg. A bent pickup tube is installed here so the wort can flow in and swirl the wort around
-A pick up tube is somewhere. Ive seen some where people just take a brass tube with a hose and stick it in over the top of the IC. I attached a pic below. I assume this is where the wort is picked up from, then a pump takes it to the bent pick up tube I mentioned before. (or do I have these two items backwards)
-A side pick up tube is needed near the bottom since the whirlpool centers the cold break/hops/remnants.

Question:

- I understand the whirlpool method accomplishes two things. Localization of sludge and cooling of wort quicker. Whats the order? Do you whirlpool to chill it, then gravity drain? If you do this I assume the sludge collects in the bottom center and doesn't move....or when it stops whirlpooling, does it expand back out to cover the whole bottom again? If this is so, do you drain while whirlpooling?

return.jpg
 
I have the same setup with the bargain fittings whirlpool arm and side pickup, wit camlocks. Just bought a Chugger, and it whirlpools around the outside of the IC great.

WP_000107.jpg
 
Here's a pic following my whirlpool/chill. As you can see the large cone of hops/trub stays quite compacted. I let mine set for a 15-20 min rest after I stop whirlpooling.

image-3241519083.jpg
 
Question:

- I understand the whirlpool method accomplishes two things. Localization of sludge and cooling of wort quicker. Whats the order? Do you whirlpool to chill it, then gravity drain? If you do this I assume the sludge collects in the bottom center and doesn't move....or when it stops whirlpooling, does it expand back out to cover the whole bottom again? If this is so, do you drain while whirlpooling?

My whirlpool loop goes through my CFC. If I'm adding whirlpool hops, I will whirlpool without chilling water on for 15 minutes or so. If no whirlpool hops, I will chill at the same time until the temp drops to about 100 F. At that point, I will turn off the whirlpool and let it settle for about 15 to 20 minutes. At that point, I turn my chilling water back on and slowly draw off my side drain, through the CFC to the fermenter.

This was a hoppy beer and you can see some has moved off the pile, but this is what I end up with.

IMAG0308.jpg


The side dip tube pulls the wort toward the valve and the whirlpool arm deposits it back into the kettle for a counterclockwise flow.
 
I think I may be confused on some stuff.

Is this how it is setup, or am I off:

-A bulkhead is installed about halfway up the keg. A bent pickup tube is installed here so the wort can flow in and swirl the wort around

Yes.

-A pick up tube is somewhere. Ive seen some where people just take a brass tube with a hose and stick it in over the top of the IC. I attached a pic below. I assume this is where the wort is picked up from, then a pump takes it to the bent pick up tube I mentioned before. (or do I have these two items backwards)

The arms you see going over the top of the vessels in between the chiller ins & outs are most likely the whirlpool arms. They will have a drain valve at the very bottom of the vessel hooked up to a pump, back up to the arm coming over the top of the vessel returning the wort.

-A side pick up tube is needed near the bottom since the whirlpool centers the cold break/hops/remnants.

yes, otherwise you'd pick up all the matter you're trying to leave behind. another alternative is simply having no pickup tube at all, just a side drain.

Question:

- I understand the whirlpool method accomplishes two things. Localization of sludge and cooling of wort quicker. Whats the order? Do you whirlpool to chill it, then gravity drain? If you do this I assume the sludge collects in the bottom center and doesn't move....or when it stops whirlpooling, does it expand back out to cover the whole bottom again? If this is so, do you drain while whirlpooling?

the actual whirlpool action itself is only to localize the sludge into a cone at the bottom. it would depend on your chiller as to when & how you would chill. if you have an immersion chiller or convoluted counterflow chiller, you can whirlpool while chilling. if you have a plate chiller, you'd most likely chill after the whirlpool is complete.

with immersion chillers, keeping the wort moving around the coils helps chill it faster than just simply letting the thing sit there in the wort without anyhting moving. during the whirlpool, the wort is constantly moving around the coils maximizing the efficiency of the heat exchange. with a convoluted chiller, it'd be: wort out -> pump -> chiller -> whirlpool in

if you have a plate chiller, then you'd want to whirlpool, let it settle, then drain it through the chiller and directly into your fermentor. that is assuming you have no way to filter the wort between the drain & your chiller..

in any case, you want to let the whirlpool settle for 15-20 minutes before draining. you would whirlpool until you hit your target temp, stop the flow to your whirlpool arm, let it sit, then drain. the cone it creates will not spread out as long as you do not disturb it after it has settled.

if you use an immersion chiller specifically, you'd probably want to remove it after you hit your target chill temp, then continue to whirlpool for another 5 minutes or so at a wide open flow rate, then cut the flow to your whirlpool and let it settle. leaving the chiller in will cause some turbulence in the whirlpool, plus it has the potential to be knocked around, disrupting your sludge cone.
 
How high up for hard plumbed return is best? I'm hoping to use my standard thermometer hole in my Blichmann kettle., but it's fairly small. 3/8 to 1/2. Haven't measured it yet.

Reluctant to drill another hole without a means to plug it up if needed..

TD
 
IMG_20131003_100633_190_zps9800b57c.jpg


Here is mine, BK on the right.
Whirlpool for 5ish minutes and than let it settle for about 10-15 and than out to the CFC
 
psbuckland said:
Here's a pic following my whirlpool/chill. As you can see the large cone of hops/trub stays quite compacted. I let mine set for a 15-20 min rest after I stop whirlpooling.

I really like that pickup location... I don't think I have ever seen one located there!
 
I bought the fermentap built kit from morebeer. Says it needs a 1" hole.
A bit reluctant to cut another hole in my Blichmann kettle. Thinking about widening the hole for the thermometer, adding a T fitting for a thermometer and a ball valve so I can monitor temps during cooling. Unusure how leakproof the bulkhead is going to be. The thermo hole is about halfway up the vessel, which should be a good location.

TD

Will post pics when its done...
 
I didn't want to punch another hole in the kettle so I build similar to revansCAAD8, but I built mine out of two 12" lengths of 1/2" stainless pipe with some 90 degree elbows. Fits over the side of my pot easily and the weight holds it into place.
 
Changed my mind.

On my brutus system, one of the lids has a return drilled through the top for recirculating the sparge water. I also use this lid for wort run-off to the boil kettle. Inside the lid is a hose barb with silicone tubing to direct wort to bottom of kettle to minimize HSA. At least that's the idea, but not to debate HSA here...
So I decided that I could unscrew the hose barb and install a copper 1/2" MPT fitting connected to a length of rigid copper tubing with an elbow on the end to act as a whirlpool arm! This should work well enough for the whirlpool, and would also help to protect my cooled wort.
Not sure about the idea of DMS however, by cooling with the lid on. I think I might let it cool to 190º before putting the lid on.
TD
 
Does it matter what direction the wort is whirlpooled? I have been going in a clockwise direction but i think this might not be right. I think I should be going in a counterclockwise direction in the northern hemisphere because of the coriolis effect.
 
Doesn't matter, especially at the homebrew scale. Go to a commercial plant and they will be wherever is more convenient. You'll probably see more effect doing as short a whirlpool as possible since homebrew pumps run full speed and whip up all the flocs into fine particles.
 
I picked up one of the Concord 100qt pots to do 15 gallon batches in and had a whirlpool port welded in a quarter of the way up. I also fabbed up a pickup tube to pull right from the edge and just a 1/4" off the bottom.

 
Well I did get a whirlpool, but not a very vigorous one. The wort was spinning, but no vortex. I think I'd need a more powerful pump and a larger inlet and outlet.
I was shooting for a 12 gallon wort size knowing I'd lose a bunch due to the 19 oz of pellet hops I added, plus the hot break and cold break. I removed the hopBlocker and later just put the rim into the pot to divert all the break material. I must say I had a lot of fun clearing my wort filter about a dozen times.

I'm wondering if my whirl pooling time was too short or if I didn't leave enough time after the whirlpool for the cone to form, or if its a lost cause due to all the break material and lack of leaf hops.

Back to hopBlocker and hop sacks for me.

TD

image-2375325127.jpg


image-221905217.jpg
 
It works better if you can get a little pull/push going, i.e., dip tube angled one direction pulling the wort with whirlpool return angled the other direction, pushing the wort to get a good spin going. You don't need a vortex. If you had the hop blocker in there as shown in the picture, that may have interfered with things a bit. Most importantly, you need to let it all settle for at least 20 minutes or so. I've got a picture of my trub/hop pile on the first page of this thread. That resulted from a pretty mild whirlpool and a 20 minute rest afterward.

Good luck.
 
dcbc said:
It works better if you can get a little pull/push going, i.e., dip tube angled one direction pulling the wort with whirlpool return angled the other direction, pushing the wort to get a good spin going. You don't need a vortex. If you had the hop blocker in there as shown in the picture, that may have interfered with things a bit. Most importantly, you need to let it all settle for at least 20 minutes or so. I've got a picture of my trub/hop pile on the first page of this thread. That resulted from a pretty mild whirlpool and a 20 minute rest afterward. Good luck.

Thanks. I can easily re-orient the dip tube, however it will lead to increased residual in the kettle afterward. The hopBlocker was not in there during the whirlpool. I rested the ring into the sludge to try and reduce the amount of crud getting drawn into the dip tube. Not effective.

I might consider doing something like a 5 gallon bucket drilled with a ton of holes in the bottom and then covered with a SS mesh screen and drain into another 5 gallon bucket and then pour into the fermenter to filter this crap out next time... That does sound like a pain in the a$$ compared with using hop sacks and the hopBlocker however.

I think I did get a little hasty in starting to run off the wort to the fermenter.

TD
 
Thanks. I can easily re-orient the dip tube, however it will lead to increased residual in the kettle afterward. The hopBlocker was not in there during the whirlpool. I rested the ring into the sludge to try and reduce the amount of crud getting drawn into the dip tube. Not effective.

I might consider doing something like a 5 gallon bucket drilled with a ton of holes in the bottom and then covered with a SS mesh screen and drain into another 5 gallon bucket and then pour into the fermenter to filter this crap out next time... That does sound like a pain in the a$$ compared with using hop sacks and the hopBlocker however.

I think I did get a little hasty in starting to run off the wort to the fermenter.

TD

That's another thing I forgot to mention. I run off very slow.
 
I have the same setup with the bargain fittings whirlpool arm and side pickup, wit camlocks. Just bought a Chugger, and it whirlpools around the outside of the IC great.

I have not been using my keggles but just bought a bunch of stuff to update them and get them back into production. I got the SS chugger, the side pick up tube, the whirlpool arm (both from bargain fittings). I also use an IC. You say you have great results?

My questions are about the interior placement of your tubes. It looks like you are about halfway up the side or so for your whirlpool tube. Can you tell me exactly how far up you are and if you have any issues with 5 or 10 gallon batches?

Do you aim the tube up, down or completely horizontal?

Do you have your pick up tube facing the opposite direction?

how long do you recirculate for the whirlpool and how long do you need to wait for it to settle?

Any pics of the interior?
 
I don't have measurements but I can get them when I get home today and take a pic of the interior.
For ten gallon batches, I have the whirlpool tube horizontal, in the opposite direction of the pickup tube to get the push/pull effect. For 5 gallon batches, I re-orientate the street elbow facing down, coming out of the 1/2" coupler to lower the location of the whirlpool arm so that it is submerged in the wort. The major reason I use this method is to chill quicker for the ten gallon batches, but once in a while I will pull the chiller after its cooled, get the whirlpool going again, and let it settle for about 20 minutes with the keg covered. It seems that i pickup very little trub this way.
 
OK so does that mean that you cant do a whirlpool on a 5 gallon batch (because you are pointing it down)? Does it whirlpool somewhat vigorously? If you dont whirlpool, which you seemed to say that you dont do all the time, do you get a lot of trub/breakage? Do you ever get any blockage ?I have never used a pump so I am not sure if it is bad for the pump to meet a blockage or if it is strong enough to just force the particles through the pick up tube
 
No, not neccesarily. It still whirlpools because I am only pointing the street elbow down and then orientating the whirpool tube so it flows tangentially with the keggle wall. Another option is to make an L-shaped 1/2" OD copper tube to use when doing 5 gallon batches so that it is below the wort surface (which I have done before). But using the street elbow it works fine for me, and I only do 5 gallon batches occasionally anyway. If I don't whirlpool I do get more trub, but it still leaves most of the trub at the bottom of the keggle. Lately, I stopped caring about carrying over trub into the fermenter after reading taste tests of trub vs no trub fermentations. As far as the Chugger pump clogging from trub and hop peelt material, it won't happen. That thing will suck a golf ball through a garden hose.
 
OK... that is great to hear about the clog (as well as the trub). I think i will mount it around the 4 gallon mark and most likely place it directly above the spigot . Thank you for taking the time to respond. It really has given me some perspective.
 
not to change the subject but I have changed my setup so now I can pump wort directly into the fermenter. The problem is my pumps that came with my morebeer setup are weak and don't think they will even create a whirlpool. For example, It took an hour to pump 10 gallons of wort from the kettle into the fermenter. The pump was 1 ft off the floor pumped up to the chller about 2.5 feet feet, then up to top of ferment another 2.5 feet. Is this too high for these magnetic impeller pumps?

Is it more effective to have the wort travel into a smaller outlet to create more wort speed for whirlpool?
 
What pump are you using? I cant imagine that it would take that long to transfer wort!
 
Just figured it out>>>>>>my chiller is filled with gunk! Any suggestions on cleaning it???? i't s a counterflow.
 
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