ADVICE PLEASE: Tart cherry juice concentrate in a stout

[bigbeergeek]

Edit: I found a mead thread where some discussion of using cherry juice concentrate in wheat ale is thrown around. I'm gonna go with 64 oz for 10 gallons unless someone advises I should go with more or less.



I'm going to brew up a spiced cherry stout for Christmas. I've got a great base stout recipe, and I've decided on dosing my spices via spice infused bourbon. I've decided the most economical way to add (real) cherries to the brew is with 100% pure, preservative free cherry juice concentrate.

The only reference I was able to find on the use of cherry juice concentrate in stout was from a BYO recipe from 2008. They added 1 qt of concentrate at flameout and a pint more in the secondary, totaling 54 oz in this unusual regimen. Article is here:

http://***********/stories/recipeindex/article/recipes/114-stout/1805-hannahs-cherry-stout

The only review on this recipe that I could find is a somewhat muddled description on Brew Board. It seems the cherry flavor was muted at best.

My plan is to add my full volume of cherry concentrate in secondary -- adding pasteurized juice at flameout doesn't make sense to me.

My question is: has anyone on here used cherry juice concentrate in a beer before? How much did you add? Right now I'm leaning toward 32 oz per 5 gallons. I don't want the beer to be overwhelmingly cherry flavored. I want a beer that is a great stout first with flavors of cherries and spice in the background. Thanks all.

 

[aiptasia]

It's really going to vary depending on the concentration of cherry flavor in the juice that you are using. Unless it was hand bottled, it's likely to already be pasturized so I wouldn't worry about adding it to your wort in the brewpot. Just add it to the secondary as planned. You'll have to experiment with the amount you're using as I doubt anyone is going to know just how concentrated the "concentrate" is you're using.

In future batches, it might also be interesting to try using dried cherries in your secondary fermentation vessil. As you mentioned, you're looking for that cherry tart background note, and you don't want it to be overwhelming. You might try Lowes market or Whole Foods for the dried cherries.

 

[phished880]

More advice with the dried cherry route. Make sure there is no oil. I picked a 8oz pack at reader joes that had sunflower oil in them.
I used 1/2 lb puréed with some first running in the final minute of my Belgian dark strong, hydro sample have been nice and noticeable but not overwhelming.

 

[bigbeergeek]

Dried cherries nearly always include oils to improve the texture of the dried fruit. I have no desire to add oils to my beer for obvious reasons. My intent here is to glean information from brewers experienced with using cherry juice concentrate in their beers -- not votes for other methods of adding cherries to beer.

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

Dried fruit sometimes also have preservatives that will mess with fermentation.

Just add the concentrate after primary fermentation. I'd start with maybe 8-10oz, let it sit for a couple days and taste it. Then see where you need to go from there and keep adding in moderate portions. You can always add more but if you go overboard you can't take it back out.

 

[boostsr20]

From Near the cherry Capitol city of the world In Michigan. I used 32oz in 5 gallons of a wheat and also in a blonde. The result was a mild tartness and a very cherry beer. I think 64oz in a stout would be perfect and it would probably be similar to bells cherry stout. This juice gives that level of tartness and flavor.

http://www.kingorchards.com/store.htm?category=Cherry Juice Concentrate

Edit: added post fermentation in the secondary and left for another month on the first beer and 2 months on the 2nd. It definitely smooths out with time. Also plan ahead and mash higher than normal as the juice does dry it out a bit. You'll Want the body for the stout and I'd even consider a malto dextrin addition.

 

[bigbeergeek]

From Near the cherry Capitol city of the world In Michigan. I used 32oz in 5 gallons of a wheat and also in a blonde. The result was a mild tartness and a very cherry beer. I think 64oz in a stout would be perfect and it would probably be similar to bells cherry stout. This juice gives that level of tartness and flavor.

http://www.kingorchards.com/store.htm?category=Cherry Juice Concentrate

Edit: added post fermentation in the secondary and left for another month on the first beer and 2 months on the 2nd. It definitely smooths out with time. Also plan ahead and mash higher than normal as the juice does dry it out a bit. You'll Want the body for the stout and I'd even consider a malto dextrin addition.

Good info here. I'm using 64 oz, but in 10 gallons of beer. I won't have months for the beer to age after the cherry addition, only 4-5 weeks unfortunately. I'll mash hot, hotter than I planned -- perhaps bite the bullet and shoot for 158*F.

 

[boostsr20]

I noticed on the first beer that it aged really well and the fruit starred to shine which is why I let the second batch go longer. So no biggie on not bulk aging too long. I'd add it to the primary so their is pkenty of yeast to clean it up asap. Just watch temps because it will start another decent fermentation.

 

[bigbeergeek]

Racked the 10 gallons of beer on top of the 64 oz of tart red cherry juice concentrate today. Base beer tastes wonderful already, 14 days into fermentation. Chocolatey, roasty, and a rich velvety body from 20% flaked barley, flaked oats and flaked wheat. I mashed hot -- 160*F -- hotter than I've ever mashed before. The SG right now is 1.020, which is perfect since I expect the cherry concentrate to dry the beer out and add tartness after it ferments. I'll post again when I spike it with spices on kegging day. I've never infused liquor before. I'm thinking 4 cups of vodka or bourbon (or perhaps a blend of the two -- I don't want a significant "bourbon" note in the final stout). Anyone ever infused spices in liquor before? I want the stuff to be concentrated so I don't have to dose the beer with much tincture. I was thinking maybe 4 cinnamon sticks, 1/2 of a freshly grated nutmeg seed and 2 tsp of mace in 4 cups of vodka... stay tuned.

 

[bigbeergeek]

Update: I only racked 5 gallons onto 32 oz of cherry juice concentrate 2 days ago. I waited to rack the other half. I tasted the cherry spiked half after two days of "new" fermentation (a tiny new krausen has formed) and found it too cherry for me. The base beer is a chocolatey robust stout, yet I could barely get through all the cherry flavor to taste it. So I'm not going to add any cherry juice concentrate to the other half and blend them 50/50 at kegging. I think it will come out good. Updates in 3 weeks.

 

[boostsr20]

Nice. Thats the best way to go about getting the flavor you want.

 

[bigbeergeek]

Nice. Thats the best way to go about getting the flavor you want.

Right? It seems to me that if the cherry flavor was halved it would be just about perfect, so I'm going half and half on the two fermentors. Can't wait for the final tasting/blending session.

 

[bigbeergeek]

Update: my spice tincture is working (I'm going for a total of 7 days contact time between the vodka, mace and cinnamon) and my beer has a label.

I'll update on kegging day with the results from the cherry juice concentrate.

 

[bigbeergeek]

OK, my final update on the cherry juice concentrate to anyone who ever finds this thread and would like some info on using it in beer. 32 ounces of "Tart is Smart" brand tart cherry juice concentrate in 5 gallons of beer tastes way, way way too tart after a month and a half of bulk aging. I've saved some of the unblended tast cherry "stout" (tastes nothing like stout anymore), about 10 bombers to age and see how the flavors develop in the coming months. As far as this Christmas goes, I did a small scale blending using tablespoons of beer and decided 1 part cherry beer to 10 parts regular stout tasted pretty darn good. Very little of the tart stuff made it into the final blend, adding the smallest bit of a tart/fruity note to the background of an otherwise big chocolatey stout. The tart cherry concentrate is tart before fermentation and very tart after fermentation. Most of the cherry character has fermented out at this stage in the game, leaving a winey/tart/fruity flavor in its wake. It's entirely possible that in 6 months time the cherry character will come back -- if such events occur I will surely update my posts here. In the meantime however, I will leave things with this: if I were to brew another cherry type beer, I would probably seek out a non-tart cherry juice or concentrate. Tart juice/concentrate or not, I would consider chemically arresting fermentation to preserve sweetness/cherry character. If I were to use tart juice concentrate again in a similar stout recipe (without arresting fermentation), I would probably add about 3 ounces (!) to a 5 gallon batch and go up from there incrementally. It has a powerful impact on flavor -- not necessarily a desirable one in quantity.

 

[dogbar]

Thanks for seeing this thread all the way through to the bitter end, bigbeergeek. Very helpful info.

 

[WIMARIPA]

Any update on this as it ages? I'm thinking of using a similar concentrate in a braggot with a lot of crystal to preserve some sweetness.

 

[bigbeergeek]

Any update on this as it ages? I'm thinking of using a similar concentrate in a braggot with a lot of crystal to preserve some sweetness.

A fine idea. I'll taste/report on the aging of both the blended stout and the intensely cherry stout tonight.

 

[MotoGP1000]

I know this is an old thread but I'm going to add my experience with it since I was searching this forum 3 weeks ago. I brewed a chocolate porter and used black cherry concentrate with lactose and vanilla additions. My intentions were to get a black forest cake beer. Well I dumped about 14oz of black cherry concentrate into 5 gallons of porter after primary fermentation and im getting, I would say, 0% cherry flavor. Maybe a little tartness but the vanilla is going to round that out. So what im left with is more so a very chocolate porter. Not a bad beer, but wasn't my goal.

Black cherry concentrate from Natural Sources

 

[John Eberly]

I used to make a black cherry stout every year when the local cherries were cheap. I found that the sweetness is the main flavor in the fruit and it would always disappear in the fermented beer. You are left with the less pleasing of the flavors which are not very “cherry”, more the flavor of the stones and skins which are pretty subtle.