Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
Is Lyle's Black Treacle essentially Invert #4, or is Black Treacle even darker and more robust than Invert #4?
A 'Lyle's Black Treacle' and 'Invert Sugar' question
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Robert65
Major Obvious (recently promoted)
None of the Lyles products is Invert sugar. Treacle is essentually what we Yanks call molasses. Golden syrup is also made from waste products of the refining process. Neither is actually inverted. They aren't substitutes for any of the standard Brirish brewing sugars. Those are made from complete cane sugar, pH adjusted, inverted, and subjected to extended heating at the inversion temperature without further evaporation to produce color and flavor through various pyrolytic reactions.
OP
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Silver_Is_Money
Larry Sayre, Developer of 'Mash Made Easy'
Wow, I never would have guessed that. Thanks!!!
BTW, do you neutralize your invert with a small amount of baking soda at the end of the process, after it has cooled?
BTW, do you neutralize your invert with a small amount of baking soda at the end of the process, after it has cooled?
Robert65
Major Obvious (recently promoted)
Some of the commercial producers neutralize it, but that's because they acidify to a ridiculously low pH for inversion. They probably have all sorts of reasons in their proprietary processes. When you make your own, the pH really only needs to be just south of neutral for inversion, so no, it isn't necessary to neutralize. I just use lactic acid and figure the tiny amount in as part of my kettle addition!
As I understand it, the Belgian candi process gets trickier. It is first adjusted to an alkaline pH and provided a source of aminos to produce Maillard products, then acidified for inversion, then neutralized again. Good reason to just buy that, whereas making simple British Invert yourself is easy. And necessary since you can't buy it by less than the tanker load.
As I understand it, the Belgian candi process gets trickier. It is first adjusted to an alkaline pH and provided a source of aminos to produce Maillard products, then acidified for inversion, then neutralized again. Good reason to just buy that, whereas making simple British Invert yourself is easy. And necessary since you can't buy it by less than the tanker load.
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
Not true.
Treacle is partially-inverted molasses mixed with other syrups. I've never actually seen invert #4 - even Ragus only make #1 and #3 these days - but it sounds paler than treacle which is properly black. Golden syrup is about 2/3 inverted - see the video at the start of this thread.
Also not true : https://murphyandson.co.uk/store/brewlength-extenders-adjuncts/46-sugar-invert-no1-25kg.html
See this thread for more sugary discussions (it rambles around a bit)
Treacle and molasses are similar but definitely not the same thing.
I was also under the impression both Lyles Black Treacle and Golden Syrup were partially made from invert.
I would sooner use treacle as molasses than #4, but in reality I'd say its somewhere in between. Caveat that the only #4 I've tasted is homemade so my frame of reference is possibly off.
I was also under the impression both Lyles Black Treacle and Golden Syrup were partially made from invert.
I would sooner use treacle as molasses than #4, but in reality I'd say its somewhere in between. Caveat that the only #4 I've tasted is homemade so my frame of reference is possibly off.
Robert65
Major Obvious (recently promoted)
Sorry if I've oversimplified. Yes, these Tate and Lyles products are partially inverted (sufficient to prevent crystallization in package,) but my main point is that neither is identical or equivalent to a proper Brewer's Invert, number whatever, nor is the raw material, production method or composition and resulting flavor closely similar. Though in a pinch perhaps they'd do in certain instances.
As for the availability, I may also exaggerate. But it is true that you can't get it in homebrew scale quantities, and not at all in through US retailers. Shipment of 25 kg from the UK would be impractical when it is so easy to make the proper stuff in amounts we need.
(It is interesting that Ragus have pared down the range. I personally only keep no. 3 on hand. For pale ales I'm happy to use Demerara sugar.)
As for the availability, I may also exaggerate. But it is true that you can't get it in homebrew scale quantities, and not at all in through US retailers. Shipment of 25 kg from the UK would be impractical when it is so easy to make the proper stuff in amounts we need.
(It is interesting that Ragus have pared down the range. I personally only keep no. 3 on hand. For pale ales I'm happy to use Demerara sugar.)
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25kg is also a lot for a homebrewer. Hell 2kg of each #1-4 would last me a year two.
What I've never seen in the US in less than drum scale is Brewers Caramel.
What I've never seen in the US in less than drum scale is Brewers Caramel.
Robert65
Major Obvious (recently promoted)
Indeed. I've searched and searched, and ammonia type or class Roman numeral whatever it's called caramel is not available at less than drum size here. It is available from UK homebrew retailers, but shipping is a little absurd on a ~125 mL bottle. I've no idea if it's feasible for those with the limited but sufficient candy making skill to make Invert to attempt making ammonia caramel or if it's unsafe, but I'd be interested in hearing if anyone knows how.
