4th batch with BS3 - pH is way off

[SoCal-Doug]

As I did with BS2, I have always cut the recommended acid adjustments in half, then tested with a meter, then adjusted again if needed. After a few batches with BS3, it's still way off. What is up with their software? Am I consistently doing something wrong?

Yesterday I did a batch of kolsch. Pretty simply bill of German pilsner, some Vienna, and a dash of carafoam. BS reported an unadjusted pH of 5.62. My target was 5.3. it recommended just over 50 ml of 10% phosphoric acid.

The water profile was also put into the software. I started with RO then added 2.7g CaCl and 1g of Gypsum to the mash water (4.64 gal mash liquor with 8.4 pounds of grain). I don't adjust the sparge liquor for this recipe. Mash profile should be in the neighborhood of CA=59 SO4=34 CL=79.

Knowing there has been issues, I entered and used only 25 ml. The software said it would get down to 5.47. 10 minutes into the mash, the pH read 5.19. Had I used the full recommended amount, I would have been in the 4's. End running's were as expected with an SG of 1.005 and a pH of 6.0. Everything else calculates perfectly. Gravities, efficiencies, and volumes were dead nuts on.

I'm not looking for exact, but maybe a little better guestimate or starting point. Wondering if i'm doing something wrong with the inputs.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

If what you thought was German Pilsner malt (DI_pH =~5.85) was merely a run of the mill North American 2-Row Brewers malt (DI_pH = ~5.57), then what you describe (a ballpark pH ~5.2 mash) is a relatively highly believable scenario, given the information which you have provided above. Is it possible that your LHBS got their malts mixed up?

Did you add the 25 mL of 10% Phosphoric Acid to the mash water beforehand, or only after the grist and mash water had been combined (in which case adequate stirring may be an issue here, as well as adequate time)? There is always the possibility that due to insufficient mixing there were localized higher acidity zones present.

Are you fully confident that your 10% Phosphoric Acid is indeed 10%?

It is my opinion that regardless of what transpired here, it is far more precise to measure pH at the 30 minute mark of the mash.

 

[SoCal-Doug]

Great thoughts

If what you thought was German Pilsner malt (DI_pH =~5.85) was merely a run of the mill North American 2-Row Brewers malt (DI_pH = ~5.57), then what you describe (a ballpark pH ~5.2 mash) is a relatively highly believable scenario, given the information which you have provided above. Is it possible that your LHBS got their malts mixed up?

Wish it were that easy. It was Weyermann German Pilsner. It's one of the four grains I buy by the 55 pound bag. Did Weyermann goof at the packaging plant? Unlikely, but i've seen weirder things.

Did you add the 25 mL of 10% Phosphoric Acid to the mash water beforehand, or only after the grist and mash water had been combined (in which case adequate stirring may be an issue here, as well as adequate time)? There is always the possibility that due to insufficient mixing there were localized higher acidity zones present.

Water adjustments and the 25ml of acid were added while the mash water was coming up to strike temp (it's a 3 vessel herms system). Probably 20 minutes before mash in. After mashing in, and a good stir, it sat for 5 to 7 minutes before recirculation was turned back on. 10 minutes later after the vorlauf was solid, the sample was taken. I generally check SG every 10 to 15 minutes and pH at 10 and 10 minutes after any adjustment.

My system doesn't do a "spray bar" or other drippy spraying thing that would cause channeling. I setup 1.5 gallons additional liquor above the grain bed. The return tube causes a constant wort swirl in the wort on top of the grain. The mash liquor volume is calculated at 1.25 qt/pound, plus lines, herms, and pump (.58 gal), plus the volume to be kept above the grain bed. full time recirc.

Are you fully confident that your 10% Phosphoric Acid is indeed 10%?

I can only trust the bottle from Morebeer. But am I "fully confident" ? never

It is my opinion that regardless of what transpired here, it is far more precise to measure pH at the 30 minute mark of the mash.

At 30 minutes, the pH was 5.21 (I was flabbergasted at the first sample and had to check again).

Meter is a Milwaukee ML102.
Calibrated at 4.01 and 7.01 about 2 hours before brewing began
Samples are placed in a room temp water bath for some time before testing, even though the meter is ATC
Probe is always rinsed in distilled water before and after sampling. Shaken off. Always stored in proper storage solution.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Is this the first time you used this 55 Lb. bag of base malt?

 

[SoCal-Doug]

Nope. Probably my 3rd bag. BS2 and BS3 over the last year has had the same type of error. That's why I always cut the acid recommendation in half, then test.

I also used BS3 at a friends house a couple weeks ago for his lager. He also used a pilsner base malt (Great western I think), from a completely different source. Same issue.

I just plugged my recipe into brewers friend (the online thing). Using the same 25ml, it came back with 5.25 (which is very near what actually happened). The BF water profile also came back with very different numbers based on the CaCl and Gypsum additions.

One of two things is happening. Either i'm using BS incorrectly (garbage in, garbage out theory) or there is something whacked in their math.

Another thought that came to mind is maybe BS vs the others, are not using the same type of chemicals. Maybe anhydrous / dihydrate and I purchased the opposite. I know, its a stretch. Just thinking out of the box. LOL

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Another thought that came to mind is maybe BS vs the others, are not using the same type of chemicals. Maybe anhydrous / dihydrate and I purchased the opposite. I know, its a stretch. Just thinking out of the box. LOL

The anhydrous versus dihydrate effect on calcium chloride (Ca+2) additions are well known. As an example of calcium added, 5g of anhydrous adds 52ppm versus dihydrate adding 39ppm in a 5-gallon batch.

 

[b_oh_bee]

Fairly new to brewing & have been trusting BS2/3 with my water adjustments completely, since I don't have a ph meter.

Something has been off with my brews and I can't track it down. Switched out yeast, then hops, then grain bill, even switched up my kegging procedure (each changed from batch to batch)

The one thing that has remained constant is me building my water profile from distilled using BS2/3. After my last batch I was playing around with Bru'n Water and noticed the adjustments there are far different. I then started taking the different brewing salts and just tasting them at different amounts in water. Beginning to think my water was just off.

My next brew I will use Brun Water & hopefully get a pH meter by then.

But yea, I was pretty shocked at the differences myself. Wasn't sure if I was using the tools wrong, but hearing it from others maybe it is just off a bit?

 

[SoCal-Doug]

Did a batch of weissbier yesterday. 60% white wheat, 40% German pils. BS3 estimated the unadjusted mash to be at 5.62. I set the target at 5.35. It recommended 54ml of phosphoric acid 10%. I used only 20ml and 15 minutes into the mash it was 5.31. 15 minutes later it was 5.30. The thing just aint right.

 

[_HH_]

I have the same issue - I just don’t trust the water adjustments on BS3 to be honest and would recommend using alternate software such as Bru’n’Water

 

[SoCal-Doug]

BS has some great features and is definitely worth the price (for what it does do), but for water chemistry and pH, i've given up on it and have to use other options. What I don't understand (as a 30 year hardware and software engineer myself) is why don't they just fix it and deploy an update. Or are they waiting to call the fix a "feature" in the next paid-for version.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Did a batch of weissbier yesterday. 60% white wheat, 40% German pils. BS3 estimated the unadjusted mash to be at 5.62. I set the target at 5.35. It recommended 54ml of phosphoric acid 10%. I used only 20ml and 15 minutes into the mash it was 5.31. 15 minutes later it was 5.30. The thing just aint right.

If you run test mashes in DI water on your white wheat and Pilsner malts and determine their respective room temperature DI mash pH's that may reveal something unique with one or both of them, or with your pH meter, or your technique. Generally these two malts are quite high in DI mash pH, and they sit about right at the top of the list in this regard, and as such they typically demand greater acidification levels than for virtually any other malted grains. Given your grist, 54 mL of 10% Phosphoric is not all that much acid.

It is not out of the question for white wheat to have a DI mash pH in the range of 5.9 to 6, or for Pilsner malt to have a DI mash pH in the range of 5.8 to 5.85. If you do not see these sort of pH values as measured at room temperature for your lots of these malts, the problem may lie in your meter, your buffers, and/or your technique, or you may have unusually low pH white wheat and Pilsner malts.

Until you have directly addressed and assessed these issues, you have no firm ground upon which to determine that any given software is at fault (or alternately, of value).

Just as for the case whereby when traveling you can't very reliably get where you want to go if you don't first know where you are at to begin with, your software is clearly in this same boat. So it must guess. It seems to me that BS3 guessed that your white wheat and Pilsner malts are rather normal, which when forced to guess, is a fair initial guess.