Still at War... Recurring Off Flavor - Need New Variables To Test

[Christophrawr]

Hi all,

A little back I did a big post with my process and off flavor I was getting. In the end I thought I figured it out, the water, since my filter wasn't working.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...ethyl-acetate-looking-for-suggestions.658762/

Turns out I jumped the gun on my victory dance, I'm back to combating this same... same... same off flavor. It's hot. Chemical. Solvent. Similar to when you ferment too high and get those fusel alcohols.

What I've done since this first thread:
-I started using spring water, still getting the off flavor so it's not the water. I even put a little bit of Campden in there now that I have it just to go that extra mile.

-I've completely replaced ALL plastic equipment, everything I soaked and cleaned with bleach has been replaced (hell even the grain bucket) except the glass since it's not porous I don't think there's a bleach carry over from when I cleaned with it.

-I changed the way I clean after hearing about potential problems using dishsoap. Now I only clean with oxiclean free with a soft sponge. Before brewing I'll toss all my clean equipment int a bucket of star san and use it when I need it. After brewing I'll clean everything in a bucket of oxiclean free, rinse and dry.

I checked again my temp controller probe and it's still matching my digital thermometer when I do comparisons. It appears to be calibrated fine so I trust that I am fermenting in my chamber at 62-66F for the first few days to week.

I had a brewer friend come over and he noticed I was overpitching a significant amount when he saw my yeast cakes on the bottom of the 1 gallon jugs and he suggested I reduce my pitching rate. This is the next variable I'll try, probably this weekend.

Other than that I'm out of variables to test... I don't care if it might seem silly or super basic but maybe I'm honestly missing something basic, I just need ideas on things to try each brew day to rule them out. If you all don't mind throwing ideas at me for variables to change in my process I'd appreciate it. Any questions about my process just ask!

 

[IslandLizard]

Rats!

I just looked at your other thread. This stood out (about Starsan):

Im mixing 1/4 oz in about 2-2.5 gallons of water.

That is merely half the recommended strength of a working solution.
Instructions clearly state to use 1 oz of Starsan concentrate per 5 (U.S.) gallons. That would be 1/2 oz in 2.5 gallons or 1/4 oz in 1.25 gallons.

Starsan needs 1 minute contact time to be effective, although items may be sanitized after 30 seconds. Items remain sanitized as long as they remain wet with Starsan or covered with the foam.

Could that be it?

Are you using glass gallon jugs as fermentation vessels only?
How much wort goes in there, and how much yeast do you pitch to that?
Which yeast do you use?

We need to solve this once and for all.

 

[mongoose33]

Hi all,

A little back I did a big post with my process and off flavor I was getting. In the end I thought I figured it out, the water, since my filter wasn't working.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...ethyl-acetate-looking-for-suggestions.658762/

Turns out I jumped the gun on my victory dance, I'm back to combating this same... same... same off flavor. It's hot. Chemical. Solvent. Similar to when you ferment too high and get those fusel alcohols.

Maybe that's what's happening, i.e., you're fermenting too warm. You note below what appears to be a controlling of your fermentation chamber temp, but what you don't say is if you're controlling based on ambient temperature or based on the temp of the wort itself. Yeast is exothermic, which means it creates heat. Wort fermenting can be 5-10 degrees above ambient temp or even more.

You .have a temp probe, hold it against the fermenter using a piece of foam or some other insulation and a bungee cord or string, and take the temp that controls the ferm chamber off the fermenter and wort, not off of ambient.

What I've done since this first thread:
-I started using spring water, still getting the off flavor so it's not the water. I even put a little bit of Campden in there now that I have it just to go that extra mile.

Good

-I've completely replaced ALL plastic equipment, everything I soaked and cleaned with bleach has been replaced (hell even the grain bucket) except the glass since it's not porous I don't think there's a bleach carry over from when I cleaned with it.

You've figured this out I think, but never bleach. Never. Ever.

-I changed the way I clean after hearing about potential problems using dishsoap. Now I only clean with oxiclean free with a soft sponge. Before brewing I'll toss all my clean equipment int a bucket of star san and use it when I need it. After brewing I'll clean everything in a bucket of oxiclean free, rinse and dry.

Probably this isn't it, but you may find some plastic is affected by star-san if you have it at the normal concentration. Silicone parts will develop a white powdery surface, vinyl tubing can become slimy. A few days is fine, but try not to keep stuff permanently in Star-San.

In the near term, get some PBW and use that to clean. Make sure your homemade recipe isn't the issue, i.e., providing off flavors itself or not fully cleaning.

I checked again my temp controller probe and it's still matching my digital thermometer when I do comparisons. It appears to be calibrated fine so I trust that I am fermenting in my chamber at 62-66F for the first few days to week.

As noted above, control based on the temp of the wort, not the ambient temp.

I had a brewer friend come over and he noticed I was overpitching a significant amount when he saw my yeast cakes on the bottom of the 1 gallon jugs and he suggested I reduce my pitching rate. This is the next variable I'll try, probably this weekend.

This could very much be a source of off-flavors. Yeast produces the flavors that flavor beer through the exponential growth phase, and an overpitch will never allow that phase to occur. Try going back to just normal yeast (dry is fine, or liquid yeast) and see how that works.

******

Here's my belief about brewing excellent beer: do best practices with everything. Process, process, process. Recipes don't matter as much as process, IMO.

Do the Star-San at the correct concentration. Get the ferm temp process down. Make sure you're not overpitching--and if you have an issue with the yeast, pitching onto a bad yeast cake isn't going to help anything.

Go back to first principles. You've already done that to some extent, replacing some of your brewery equipment, and switching to presumably better cleaning detergent (oxy).

Please don't take this personally--we're trying to help--but it seems like your operation is based on squeezing the process to make it as cheap as possible. Get some cleaner like PBW that is designed for brewery cleaning, and use that for a bit. Don't skimp on the Star-San. Get the ferm chamber setup correctly if it's not. Don't use a yeast cake which might already be compromised; start with fresh yeast.

You *will* get there, but no more corner cutting! Later, when the beer is good, you can cut one corner per each brew day and see if it matters, but not now.

Good luck, keep us apprised of how this all works.

 

[IslandLizard]

Wow! That sums it up nicely! ^

 

[IslandLizard]

Get some cleaner like PBW that is designed for brewery cleaning

I think the OP said he's using Oxiclean (free), which is fine for most general use, but for extra umph, (homemade) PBW is the ticket.

He can easily boost that into homemade PBW:

30% TSP/90 (or regular TSP)
70% Oxiclean​

That's about as cheap as one can get it. Buy the TSP/90 (or TSP) in 1 or 4 pound bags/containers. Will last you a few years that way.
Use it to clean fermenters and everything else that touches your beer and chilled wort. Works well on the hot side too.

Working solutions of that can be saved and stored, but the oxygen component will have dissipated within a few hours after dissolving, even faster at higher temps. Whatever is leftover is still a very good all purpose brewery cleaner! Oxygen action is overrated anyway, IMO.

You need (non-scratching) brushes to clean the inside of your equipment. Just soaking, swirling, and rinsing isn't cutting it.

 

[mongoose33]

I think the OP said he's using Oxiclean (free), which is fine for most general use, but for extra umph, (homemade) PBW is the ticket.

He can easily boost that into homemade PBW:

30% TSP/90 (or regular TSP)
70% Oxiclean​

That's about as cheap as one can get it. Buy the TSP/90 (or TSP) in 1 or 4 pound bags/containers. Will last you a few years that way.
Use it to clean fermenters and everything else that touches your chilled wort. Works well on the hot side too.

Working solutions of that can be saved and stored, but the oxygen component will have dissipated within a few hours after dissolving, even faster at higher temps. Whatever is leftover is still a very good all purpose brewery cleaner! Oxygen action is overrated anyway, IMO.

You need (non-scratching) brushes to clean the inside of your equipment. Just soaking, swirling, and rinsing isn't cutting it.

The reason behind the "PBW for now" idea is that it relieves OP of the burden of figuring this out. I have no doubt that people successfully use the home-made version of PBW. I don't, I use PBW, though that may change at some point.

But I seem to recall there are different versions of Oxiclean, some perfumed, some not, and one wants the non-perfumed version for cleaning brewing equipment.

It was just an example of taking out of the equation anything that could screw things up. Clean with PBW a few times, knowing it can't be what's wrong (assuming he rinses it properly, of course). Then when things are working, use the homemade version and make sure it's not what's causing the problem. I'm just trying to remove as many variables as possible.

 

[Christophrawr]

Awesome stuff - I appreciate the input. This is perfect. So here's some responses:

Rats!

I just looked at your other thread. This stood out (about Starsan):

That is merely half the recommended strength of a working solution.
Instructions clearly state to use 1 oz of Starsan concentrate per 5 (U.S.) gallons. That would be 1/2 oz in 2.5 gallons or 1/4 oz in 1.25 gallons.

Are you using glass gallon jugs as fermentation vessels only?
How much wort goes in there, and how much yeast do you pitch to that?
Which yeast do you use?

I'm filling a 2 gallon container with 1/2 oz Star San now as you noticed I wasn't using enough before. I'm using 1 gallon glass jugs for fermentation vessels. Wort is almost exactly 1 gallon in the kettle after chilling. When I funnel it into a glass jug I fill it to my 112 fluid ounce mark (7/8 of a gallon) to leave a little room for the krausen. I was pitching half a pack of dry yeast (US05 & Belle Saison mostly) into that without rehydrating.

Maybe that's what's happening, i.e., you're fermenting too warm. You note below what appears to be a controlling of your fermentation chamber temp, but what you don't say is if you're controlling based on ambient temperature or based on the temp of the wort itself. Yeast is exothermic, which means it creates heat. Wort fermenting can be 5-10 degrees above ambient temp or even more.

So for the probe I am holding it tightly against the glass jugs with thickly folded bubble wrap and a Velcro band that wraps around it. I also started holding it even lower than I would before thinking about the internal temp of active fermentation, so like 62F the first coupled days then raising a couple F a day to 68 where I'd hold it.

I goofed up the wording about how I clean, I make a fresh bucket of Sar San morning of brew day toss all the stuff in then. After using it on brew day I'll rinse/clean it with oxi and let it dry, put it away for next brew day.

I will totally figure out what TSP/90 is and umph up my cleaning agent. I do use a non abrasive sponge to wipe everything down in the oxiclean. The only things I can't get inside to clean are the transfer tubes, I do have a nylon brush for the jugs. Regarding this though;

Another bit of info. The flavor is there before bottling, I can get it when I take my hydrometer sample. I usually just dump the batch then. So it's not touching tubing or bottles which could be harboring infections.

 

[Redpappy]

Are you using a half pack of us-05 and a half pack of belle saison per 1 gal batch? Or is half of one or the other?

 

[Christophrawr]

Are you using a half pack of us-05 and a half pack of belle saison per 1 gal batch? Or is half of one or the other?

Half of one or the other so that's like 5 grams or something total into the 7/8 gallon of wort+trub in the fermenter.

My brewer friend who brought up the over pitching also told me to just try making a 5 gallon batch and pitch a dry pack in or smack pack as is and just see. It's been on my mind...

 

[Jayjay1976]

I always check my bung for weird smells after brewing a heavy batch. I used to have a heavy lab-grade drilled bung that was causing rubber off-flavors, threw it out and clear sailing ever since.

 

[Christophrawr]

I always check my bung for weird smells after brewing a heavy batch. I used to have a heavy lab-grade drilled bung that was causing rubber off-flavors, threw it out and clear sailing ever since.

No joke - the guy that came over to sample my off flavor said a similar thing he'd heard. He tied it into 1 gallon batches though, said some people thought the bung was so close to the wort or touching the high krausen which was leaching an off flavor from it. Quite the concept but you just solidified the idea further hey My bungs came from an online homebrew shop and were first use after washing with oxiclean free. I'll give them a sniff when I'm home.

 

[Christophrawr]

So since i just want to try changing a variable or two a brewday I figure it's fine if I just do some basic DME recipe. I don't want to mill and mash to save time until I figure this out. Think doing an all DME recipe with US05 will make a clean enough beer just to taste for the off flavor in question? I've never done an extract batch so not sure how it'll turn out.

1 Gallon

Eska Spring Water
1.15 lb DME Light
0.15 oz Cascade at 60 min
0.20 oz Cascade at 15 min
1/4 package (2.85 g) rehydrated US05

OG 1.050
IBU 36

In primary for 2 weeks
Bottle condition for 2 weeks

So this batch I'll be trying to the reduced pitching rate and 1 week less in primary, I was always letting it sit for 3 weeks out of habit before bottling - never thought it would make a difference since I heard autolysis is more a concern for breweries as there's more downward pressure on the yeast cake but hey someone before said I shouldn't let it sit for 3 weeks if it's done in 10 days - why not try it out right.

 

[Christophrawr]

I brewed Tuesday night using the above DME recipe to save time. OG at 1.047, for some reason my boil was less vigorous than usual, irrelevant though. Pitched 2.5 grams of US05 rehydrated. The water was probably a bit too cold when rehydrating, it was around 69F, but I carried on. Pitched it into the 62F wort, shook the jug vigorously for a few minutes then into the fermentation chamber set to 62F. So far I noticed less trub at the bottom of the fermenter - maybe from pitching less? Not sure if that's the case or if using DME over milled grain affects the trub amount into the fermenter after boiling.

Will raise it to 68F over the next week and let it sit there for a second week before taking my hydrometer sample to taste. I'll report back then.