Schwarzbier/Black Lager Water Profile

[cnash]

So, I'm brewing a Schwarzbier/Black Lager soon.
I've been scouring the web looking at different water profiles for this style and there isn't much information and the information available is a little all over the place.

Some say to use bru'n black dry or balanced, some say brown balanced. Some even say to use something like a Pilsner with Yellow Dry.
Brukaiser has two setup basked on undissolved or dissolved chalk:

	Ca	Mg	Na	So4	CI	HCO3
brukaiser undissolved chalk	80​	10​	26​	16​	33​	165​
brukaiser dissolved chalk	40​	10​	21​	16​	33​	151​

And I've seen just about everything in between.

I was thinking maybe the following?

Ca	Mg	Na	So4	CI	HCO3
50​	10​	22​	16​	33​	150​

Or should I go with a more "known" profile?

 

[IceChisel]

There probably won't be much information about it as it's a lager. Lagers are mostly made use low mineral content waters. If you're building your water from RO or DI you only need the bicarbonate to counteract the acidity of the darker malts in your grain bill and then only if they bring the pH too low.

 

[couchsending]

You only need the bicarbonate in your water if you include the dark malts for the entirety of the mash. If you just add them at the end of the mash to add color and reduce roast in the beer you don’t need the bicarbonate necessarily.

This is what will make of break the beer honesty, The perception of the roast malt.

schwarzbier’s have more roast character. Czech dark lagers don’t. Most German beers will be traditionally made wit water higher in bicarbonate, Czech maybe not as much.... depends

what’s your grain bill?

 

[jdauria]

I usually use Brown Balanced for my Schwarzbiers, Per the style guidelines, while they are dark beers, there are not suppose to be black, they are usually medium to high brown.

 

[cnash]

Recipe is going to be between 2-2.5% roasted barley.

Recipe is a slightly modified version of this: Schwarzbier - May the Schwarz-bier With You

 

[cnash]

No other input?

Not many brewing this style I guess.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

If that's your only source of dark grains, you probably don't need anywhere near the bicarbonate/alkalinity you listed (perhaps not any at all). Avoid aiming for colour based profiles 'brown balanced' etc. - they don't tell the full story. If you have a black beer that gets it's colour from dark crystal and choc malt, it needs a lot more alkalinity/bicarbonate added than a beer the same colour that only uses a couple of percent roasted malt. FWIW, my schwarzbiers have about 80ppm Calcium with an even split between chloride and sulfate. Bicarbonate (which I add using baking soda) is only what's needed to get a 5.4 mash pH - it doesn't take much.

 

[Beer666]

I skip bicarbonate in mine and go for 30 to 50ppm of chloride and sulphate but not adverse to leaving the latter out. Mash around 5.2 according to software.

 

[cnash]

So a couple other options I worked up based on what some of you have said.

Ca	Mg	Na	So4	CI	HCO3
50	0	8	63	46	16

Ca	Mg	Na	So4	CI	HCO3
50	0	8	52	44	31

 

[cnash]

Another idea I had.

Ca	Mg	Na	So4	CI	HCO3
52	3	8	46	69	16

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I think if you brewed three batches, one with each of those water profiles, the best beer judge in the world wouldn't be able to tell the difference between them. Any one of the three will work. What is your predicted mash pH with those profiles?

 

[shetc]

I recommend Bru'n Water's boiled Munich profile. The sulfate and chloride are low and that lets the malt come through better. You could use a technique where you add all the minerals to the mashing water so that the calcium content in the mash is high enough to get the oxalate to precipitate out. Sparging water is straight RO and that dilutes the overall concentrations down to the modest levels similar to Munich.

 

[dmaxweb]

This is Kal's recommended water profile for schwartzbier:
"Water treated with brewing salts to our Balanced flavour profile: Ca=50, Mg=10, Na=16, Cl=70, SO4=70. (Hit minimums on Ca and Mg, keep the Cl:SO4 ratio low and equal. Do not favour flavour / maltiness or bitterness / dryness"

https://shop.theelectricbrewery.com/pages/schwarzbier#Recipe

 

[jdauria]

Recipe is going to be between 2-2.5% roasted barley.

Recipe is a slightly modified version of this: Schwarzbier - May the Schwarz-bier With You

How did it come out with roasted barley instead of using a debittered black malt like Carafa?

 

[dmaxweb]

I may be beating a dead horse or overthinking but here goes.
I'm doing a Schwarbier this weekend. Here's the recipe:
Ingredients:

9.0 lb (44.4%) German Dark Munich; Weyerman - added during mash 60 m
8.0 lb (39.5%) Pilsner Malt; Weyermann - added during mash 60 m
1.0 lb (4.9%) 2-Row Caramel Malt 40L; Briess - added during mash 60 m
1.0 lb (4.9%) Chocolate Malt; William Crisp - added during mash 60 m
8 oz (2.5%) Blackprinz Malt; Briess - added during mash 60 m
8 oz (2.5%) Carafa Special® TYPE II; Weyermann - added during mash 60 m
4 oz (1.2%) Cara-Pils® Malt; Briess - added during mash 60 m
5.5 oz (73.3%) Hallertauer Mittelfrüher (2.9%) - added during boil, boiled 60 m
1 oz (13.3%) Hallertauer Mittelfrüher (2.9%) - added during boil, boiled 20 m
1 ea Whirlfloc Tablets (Irish moss) - added during boil, boiled 10 m
1 oz (13.3%) Hallertauer Mittelfrüher (2.9%) - steeped after boil
1 ea Fermentis W-34/70 Saflager W-34/70

Original Gravity: 1.051
Terminal Gravity: 1.013
Color: 26.81 SRM
Alcohol: 5.05%
Bitterness: 28.8

As mentioned earlier in this thread, suggested water profiles are all over the place. Any thoughts on one of these? Im thinking Medium Lager profile

Style	Medium Lager	Munich Dark	Mild/Dark Lager	Dark Lager (1)	Dark Lager (2)
Calcium	74	63	75	83	73
Magnesium	5	0	12	0	13
Sodium	10	10	35	50	52
Chloride	16	13	100	75	80
Sulfate	21	28	120	53	125
Carbonate	111	60	100	90	63
Hardness	56	45	61	59	60
Bicarbonate	226	60	100	90	129
ALK	185	49	82	74	106

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

IAs mentioned earlier in this thread, suggested water profiles are all over the place. Any thoughts on one of these?

My thought is that most of us could use nigh-on any one of those 'profiles' and likely make a beer that is highly indistinguishable from most of the rest of them.

 

[tracer bullet]

I don't want to sound flippant but I'd start with something middle range, or even just what simply sounds good, and go with it.

Next time you brew the recipe, tweak if needed.

This is one of those "RDWHAHB" moments.

 

[cire]

There is insufficient variation in those profiles to make any noticeable to the overwhelming majority of drinkers.

Dark Lager (1) is impossible to create using any of the usual brewing salts.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Many (to perhaps most?) of such so-called 'profiles' are merely someones minerals dream. If profiles do not Cation/Anion mEq/L balance, they are impossible to fabricate. Strict Cation/Anion mEq/L balancing (effectively electrical charge balancing at the ionic level) should be a ground floor must for anything proclaimed to be (or purported to be) a profile.

 

[mabrungard]

Style	Medium Lager	Munich Dark	Mild/Dark Lager	Dark Lager (1)	Dark Lager (2)
Calcium	74	63	75	83	73
Magnesium	5	0	12	0	13
Sodium	10	10	35	50	52
Chloride	16	13	100	75	80
Sulfate	21	28	120	53	125
Carbonate	111	60	100	90	63
Hardness	56	45	61	59	60
Bicarbonate	226	60	100	90	129
ALK	185	49	82	74	106

A schwartzbier is essentially a black pils and color is the desired contribution from any roast additions. Both flavor and aroma contributions are not really desirable from the roast. Adding the dose of roast grain at the end of the mashing period can be a decent way to extract the color while reducing the other contributions. That technique also reduces the need to worry about including alkalinity in the mashing water like you would for a porter or stout.

I believe that many brewers would find that the Munich Dark profile would produce a decent lager without the water character interfering too much with the malt flavor that should dominate a schwartzbier. Low chloride and sulfate would be my preference in the style and that profile provides that.

An important recognition that any brewer should recognize and practice with any water 'profile', is that the alkalinity producers reported for the profile (carbonate and bicarbonate) are actually just placeholders and they are NOT targets. The actual concentration of either of those constituents should be based on what your grist needs to produce an acceptable mashing pH.

Ignore bicarbonate and carbonate concentrations in any profile, they're just a starting point.