question on the differences between tripels and dubbels

[_Keven]

I recently brewed northern brewer's tripel extract recipe. It tastes much more like a dubbel than a tripel and I'm trying to figure out why. I have a few ideas though, our fermentation stalled a little bit with a FG of 1.020 (OG 1.074) which was likely caused from bad yeast choice (wyeast 3787 we could've used a higher attenuation yeast) as well as a big blow off likely losing a lot of yeast in the process (also I've heard extracts stall at 1.020 a lot but this is my 3rd homebrew and every time before I got it well below 1.015 all from extracts), as well as the color being much more like a dubbel. My question is does our higher FG dictate the flavor profile or was it maybe the choice in yeast? What can I do in the future to achieve the desired taste?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

northern brewer's tripel extract recipe

Is this the recipe kit: https://www.northernbrewer.com/products/belgian-tripel-extract-kit ?

What can I do in the future to achieve the desired taste?

I'll offer more thoughts once we confirm the recipe kit.

eta: "Kits get us started, discussion moves us forward!"

 

[_Keven]

Is this the recipe kit: https://www.northernbrewer.com/products/belgian-tripel-extract-kit ?


I'll offer more thoughts once we confirm the recipe kit.

eta: "Kits get us started, discussion moves us forward!"

yep thats the one

 

[mashdar]

3787 is the most bonkers yeast I've ever used. Blow off with half-empty fermenters. Even starters can be a problem. But it makes tasty beer!

I mostly make and drink quads with 3787 (eg Westmalle, Westvleteren). Perhaps it doesn't match you expectations for a tripel?

IMO abbey beers lean very heavily on the candy syrup. I've heard the crystals don't work out as well, but I've never tried them.

For most breweries the dubbel is quite a bit darker than the tripel ~15srm vs 6srm. Does your beer have caramel notes? It could be that the malt extraxt was old.

 

[Bobby_M]

Did you do it as a really concentrated partial boil and a big top off in the fermenter or closer to a full boil? Tripels are a bit higher in IBUs but if you dilute a lot of it out with the top off leaving it a bit sweet.

 

[_Keven]

Did you do it as a really concentrated partial boil and a big top off in the fermenter or closer to a full boil? Tripels are a bit higher in IBUs but if you dilute a lot of it out with the top off leaving it a bit sweet.

I'm quite new to homebrewing so I'm not sure exactly what a partial boil is, but we followed the instructions quite closely. One issue that might've caused such a high FG is we made a primary in a 2 Liter that blowed off losing quite a bit of yeast as well as another blow off during the primary. Definitely wasn't expecting such a strong reaction with this yeast (lesson learned, definitely getting a bigger starter vessel as well as primary vessel) . What do you mean by diluting it out exactly?

 

[_Keven]

3787 is the most bonkers yeast I've ever used. Blow off with half-empty fermenters. Even starters can be a problem. But it makes tasty beer!

I mostly make and drink quads with 3787 (eg Westmalle, Westvleteren). Perhaps it doesn't match you expectations for a tripel?

IMO abbey beers lean very heavily on the candy syrup. I've heard the crystals don't work out as well, but I've never tried them.

For most breweries the dubbel is quite a bit darker than the tripel ~15srm vs 6srm. Does your beer have caramel notes? It could be that the malt extraxt was old.

Yeah definitely some caramel flavors in this. I'm thinking of coming up with a custom recipe with some fresher malt. Any recommendations on yeast strain for a Belgian Trippel?

 

[Bobby_M]

How much liquid volume was boiled? How much water did you add directly to the fermenter after the boil?

I'm quite new to homebrewing so I'm not sure exactly what a partial boil is, but we followed the instructions quite closely. One issue that might've caused such a high FG is we made a primary in a 2 Liter that blowed off losing quite a bit of yeast as well as another blow off during the primary. Definitely wasn't expecting such a strong reaction with this yeast (lesson learned, definitely getting a bigger starter vessel as well as primary vessel) . What do you mean by diluting it out

 

[mashdar]

What you're calling a "primary" sounds like a yeast starter. For that yeast a bigger starter vessel may be needed, especially if you don't have one of the stronger stir plates to knock down the foam.

Dry malt extract is much easier to get fresh than liquid. The dry stays good much longer. LME starts to darken and add caramel notes as it ages.

I'm not familiar with "golden malt syrup" - it sounds like pale extract. Most tripel recipes call for pilsner extract, if you're customizing.

A "partial boil" means boiling just some of your final volume. E.g. a 3 gallon boil that you top off to 5 gallons at the end.

A high power boil can also darken and cause caramelization. A lot of people have shifted to gentler boils in recent years.

edit: fwiw it looks like a lot of people like 3787 for tripels. Some people use a product called fermcap to reduce foaming. I'm too lazy/cheap/paranoid to add stuff like that, but it sounds like it works.

 

[dmtaylor]

3787 is a fussy yeast. It will seem to quit for a while and then it might take off again later. Watch out. If you have bottled this beer, the bottles might turn into gushers or even explode after a few more weeks while this yeast takes its sweet time finishing the fermentation of some more sugars, basically bringing down the gravity, bringing up the alcohol, and producing a lot more CO2 in the process.

As for the difference between dubbel and tripel, perhaps the biggest difference is that dubbel is generally a deep copper to light brown color, while tripel is a gold color. Tripel also tends to be a little higher in alcohol. There are many other little things that could be discussed but those are the primary differences IMO. If your beer is still light in color, I'd still call it a tripel, not a dubbel.

For next time I might recommend using an extra pound of plain sugar. My general guidance for brewing with extract is shown below. It should give you some good ideas.

 

[mac_1103]

Dry malt extract is much easier to get fresh than liquid. The dry stays good much longer. LME starts to darken and add caramel notes as it ages.

A high power boil can also darken and cause caramelization.

My money is on some combination of these. First beer I ever made was a Brewer's Best Tripel kit that I got as a gift. Sat around for a while before I brewed it, so the LME wasn't exactly fresh. I also scorched some of it on the bottom of the pot during the boil. It was still pretty tasty, but darker and sweeter than a tipel should be.

FWIW, Morebeer's extract kits can be ordered as either DME or LME.

 

[dmtaylor]

Oh yeah. DME is superior to LME when it comes to color and oxidation (the enemy of beer).

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

"Gold light syrup" is likely to be similar to Briess "Golden Light" LME.

as well as the color being much more like a dubbel

The estimated color for the grain bill is probably in the SRM 8 to 10 range.

If you were expecting SRM 4, this recipe, even with fresh ingredients, won't deliver that.

but we followed the instructions quite closely

A partial boil (start with 2.5 gal water for 60 min, adding 1/3 the LME at 60 and 2/3 the LME at 20, then topping off in the fermenter).

@mashdar covered LME shelf life and boil in #9.

This is a good visual reference for boil intensity.



@dmtaylor 's "Tips and Tricks" is solid.

Chapter 1 of How to Brew, 4e is an excellent starting point for the partial boil with late additions process.

When working with dry malt extract, there are some nice enhancements to the process in "I brewed a favorite recipe today" (link to #206).

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I'm thinking of coming up with a custom recipe with some fresher malt. Any recommendations on yeast strain for a Belgian Trippel?

• 80% Pilsen DME, 20% table sugar (Brewing Classic Styles, p 240)
• 4 oz steeping grain of your choice (optional)
• hops of your choice,
• MJ M31Belgian Tripel.

30 minute boil. Soft boil (level 1 or 2 in UT video).

• full volume: add DME & sugar while heating the water (probably around 180F)
• partial boil: start with 3 gal water and half the DME. Add the sugar and remaining disolved DME about 5 min before the end of the boil.

Back in 2018, when I was brewing DME-based Tripels, I found that MJ 31 would get the DME-based wort to around FG 10. Yes, a higher percentage of sugar helps - but I did split fermentations with some other belgian-ish dry strains and those strains didn't finish as low. Assuming that MJ 31 hasn't changed over the last five years, I doubt that it is a repackged Lallemand or Fermentis product. It may be someone else's strain, but what's wrong with putting together a product line of dry yeast from various sources?

 

[mac_1103]

Assuming that MJ 31 hasn't changed over the last five years, I doubt that it is a repackged Lallemand or Fermentis product. It may be someone else's strain, but what's wrong with putting together a product line of dry yeast from various sources?

I think M31 might be BE-256, but even if it isn't the attenuation and sensory profiles seem very similar to me. Anyway, aren't all MJ yeasts actually someone else's strains? They just repackage, right? And no, there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

BE-256

I haven't used it for a long time and didn't use it for DME-based Tripels back in 2018.

A batch with split fermentation (MJ 31 and BE-256) would be interesting.

---

I saw some 'new to me' information on pitch rates on the BE-256 landing page. There's also a BE-256 specific Q&A page.

Probably time for me to start my semi-annual visit to the product information pages of the yeast strains that I use.

 

[_Keven]

How much liquid volume was boiled? How much water did you add directly to the fermenter after the boil?

ah ok, Boil was 2.5 gallons and we added another 2.5 gallons post boil to give us 5 gallons

 

[_Keven]

• 80% Pilsen DME, 20% table sugar (Brewing Classic Styles, p 240)
• 4 oz steeping grain of your choice (optional)
• hops of your choice,
• MJ M31Belgian Tripel.

30 minute boil. Soft boil (level 1 or 2 in UT video).

• full volume: add DME & sugar while heating the water (probably around 180F)
• partial boil: start with 3 gal water and half the DME. Add the sugar and remaining disolved DME about 5 min before the end of the boil.

Back in 2018, when I was brewing DME-based Tripels, I found that MJ 31 would get the DME-based wort to around FG 10. Yes, a higher percentage of sugar helps - but I did split fermentations with some other belgian-ish dry strains and those strains didn't finish as low. Assuming that MJ 31 hasn't changed over the last five years, I doubt that it is a repackged Lallemand or Fermentis product. It may be someone else's strain, but what's wrong with putting together a product line of dry yeast from various sources?

thanks for all the detailed responses, definitely gonna give this a try this summer.

 

[Bobby_M]

ah ok, Boil was 2.5 gallons and we added another 2.5 gallons post boil to give us 5 gallons

Yeah so you develop a certain bitterness concentration in the 2.5 gallon boil, then you cut it in half when you dilute with pure water. Sometimes the recipe design accounts for this affect and they should as long as they tell you how much water to start with.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

HowToBrew, 4e has additional information on IBUs when using partial boils and late additions. Basic Brewing Radio (November 1, 2018 - IBUs vs Wort Gravity and Hop Stand Temps) has the science to support the idea of a limit of roughly 100 to 120 lab measured IBUs in a volume of water. So partial boils (split 50/50) probably have a limit of 50 to 60 IBUs.

For a Tripel, this isn't a limiting factor:

btw: the online (1st edition) of How to Brew is back on line and still out of date in many areas regarding brewing with DME/LME. The 3rd edition is also out of date in a number of areas.

 

[Bobby_M]

HowToBrew, 4e has additional information on IBUs when using partial boils and late additions. Basic Brewing Radio (November 1, 2018 - IBUs vs Wort Gravity and Hop Stand Temps) has the science to support the idea of a limit of roughly 100 to 120 lab measured IBUs in a volume of water. So partial boils (split 50/50) probably have a limit of 50 to 60 IBUs.

For a Tripel, this isn't a limiting factor:

View attachment 845915​

btw: the online (1st edition) of How to Brew is back on line and still out of date in many areas regarding brewing with DME/LME. The 3rd edition is also out of date in a number of areas.

I agree on the concept of IBU saturation limits but that's not what I'm suggesting. For contrast, I'll use an example that works for the IBU limit, then explain what I'm talking about.

If you're trying to brew a 100 IBU beer, you CAN'T just boil 2.5 gallons with the hops and top off the other 2.5 because you'd hit your saturation point of say 100 IBUs in the boil and then dilute it down to 50. That's where the saturation limit problem comes in.

In the case of any recipe that technically CAN achieve desired IBUs despite the dilution, the recipe design still has to account for the IBUs being cut by some percentage. It's not that you can't reach the IBUs, its whether you are or not via the recipe design and brew day execution.

Change the exact recipe to boiling half as much with a fermenter top up. You can see the IBUs are cut in half if you only use the .37oz of hops.

In order to compensate for the dilution, you have to increase the hop addition

In other words, extract recipes have to be prescriptive of boil volumes at the very least, if not supply enough hops for the most concentrated boil that is practical and then some kind of table of "if you boil this volume, scale the hops like this".

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

concentrated boil

Concentrated boils (all the malts and half the water at start of boil)

and

partial boils with late additions (half the malts / water at start of boil)

are very different processes.

---

If you want to name the recipe software you are using and post full recipes (eta: including times for ingredient additions) for both of your examples, there's likely to be something interesting to discuss.

Also, for OP's benefit let's assume 5 gal going into the fermenter.

And with DME/LME, can we brew in the mid 2020s with a 30 minute boil?

 

[Bobby_M]

Concentrated boils (all the malts and half the water at start of boil)

and

partial boils with late additions (half the malts / water at start of boil)

are very different processes.

---

If you want to name the recipe software you are using and post full recipes (eta: including times for ingredient additions) for both of your examples, there's likely to be something interesting to discuss.

Also, for OP's benefit let's assume 5 gal going into the fermenter.

And with DME/LME, can we brew in the mid 2020s with a 30 minute boil?

I was never talking about late additions, but in terms of IBU dilution via topup water in the fermenter, it doesn't matter whether the extract was added at the beginning or end. Sure, the timing of the extract addition in the boil will also affect IBU deveopment but it's less likely that an extract kit will call for that.

Let's back up to the OP's question. He thought his Trippel was coming out a bit more like a Dubbel and I suggested it might be a balance issue where the bitterness was not quite up to the style standards. I thought that because he's a relatively new brewer using an extract kit and the total boil volume will affect the final IBU contribution as I demonstrated in the examples above.

A certain amount of hops in a certain volume of wort will develop a certain IBU concentration. When you add plain water, you're diluting the IBUs.

The software is Brewfather if that's interesting to you but all software is modeled with IBU dilution based on boil volume and post-boil water additions.


The odds of an extract kit from a major vendor calling for a 30 minute boil is slim and that's further going to complicate the IBU calculation.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I was never talking about late additions,

FWIW, the recipe OP was using included a "late" (20 min before end of boil) addition of roughly 2/3 (6# of 9.15#) of the LME.

 

[Bobby_M]

Good catch. Instead of making assumptions I finally grabbed the instructions and see what you mean. They also prescribe the 2.5 gallon boil volume so it's a well thought out instruction sheet.

I think the only remaining IBU discrepancy would be not double checking current product alpha acid ratings with the ones assumed in the recipe. That's one thing that is particularly hard as a vendor. The recipes get developed and you think, "good, that's done". Then two or three years later the European hop crops are sucking with alphas half as much as before. Since the hops on the recipe are Perle and Saaz, there's a good possibility the actual IBUs are lower. Perle has been tracking around 5.0 to 5.2 AA lately when 8-9% has been typical previously.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

@Bobby_M : excellent observations in #25 on hops and alpha acids. Thanks! I have a couple of American Ale clone recipes that I occasionally brew with Perle - and I have seen the 5% vs 9% AA changes over the years.

I continue to appreciate your voice as a both home brewer and as supplier to home brewers (It's a hobby to me & I'm not in the home brewing industry).

 

[Gadjobrinus]

3787 is the most bonkers yeast I've ever used. Blow off with half-empty fermenters. Even starters can be a problem. But it makes tasty beer!

I mostly make and drink quads with 3787 (eg Westmalle, Westvleteren). Perhaps it doesn't match you expectations for a tripel?

IMO abbey beers lean very heavily on the candy syrup. I've heard the crystals don't work out as well, but I've never tried them.

For most breweries the dubbel is quite a bit darker than the tripel ~15srm vs 6srm. Does your beer have caramel notes? It could be that the malt extraxt was old.

As I discovered, lol. First Belgian, a tripel, with 3787. Thank god I used a blowoff v. airlock. I had to leave out of town so presumed that was the safer bet. This is at 72 hours.