My first sour brew progress...

[deeve007]

Am currently trying a co-pitched sour for my 4th brew, as it is my favourite style so figured why not jump in with both feet even this early in the game?!!

Brewed with 50% pilsen, 50% wheat, co-pitched with US-05 and WildBrew Sour Pitch (thanks @Gnomebrewer) ...

I took a tiny sample just 3 days after pitching due to being super curious what might be happening, as well as maybe slightly concerned with the colour (see photo below), but happy to report there's a lovely sour flavour developing, very pleasant already so being just 3 days am presuming/hoping there's even more sourness to develop...? If not, is there any advantage to adding some more Sour Pitch at this stage to increase sourness, or just be patient?

And even though I presume much of the yeast currently floating around giving it this "cloudiness" will drop out once fermenting is done, I'm wondering if this style of beer would benefit hugely from using some gelatin to clear it? Any feedback from anyone that's brewed one?

 

[eric19312]

Most of my sour beers drop quite clear without any need for gelatin. Typically they drop so clear in the fermentor that I end up pitching a couple grams (literally 2 grams in 5 gallons) of bottling yeast (I like wine yeast for this) when I bottle.

 

[deeve007]

Most of my sour beers drop quite clear without any need for gelatin. Typically they drop so clear in the fermentor that I end up pitching a couple grams (literally 2 grams in 5 gallons) of bottling yeast (I like wine yeast for this) when I bottle.

Cool man, that's great info, thanks!!

 

[deeve007]

@Gnomebrewer, going back to the simple sour recipe idea you gave me that I'm following, how long roughly would you ferment in total before secondary racking onto fruits and/or bottling?

 

[TwistedGray]

@Gnomebrewer, going back to the simple sour recipe idea you gave me that I'm following, how long roughly would you ferment in total before secondary racking onto fruits and/or bottling?

Most of us ferment out on the yeast then pitch the fruit into the fermenter. From there, give it about a month before bottling. You wouldn't want to rush it...

 

[TGFV]

This may be redundant to tell you, but make sure to use a different set of bottling gear (bucket, spigots, siphons etc) for this beer than for your future beers that aren't sours.

 

[deeve007]

Most of us ferment out on the yeast then pitch the fruit into the fermenter. From there, give it about a month before bottling. You wouldn't want to rush it...

Cool, that's about what I figured, though may bottle one a week from the spigot just to be able to do some comparisons (experiment, experiment, experiment ).

What was interesting, I posted something on the "Milk The Funk" facebook group, which is all about sour brewing stuff, and got reamed by a few guys there for daring to suggest you could brew a sour in less than 6+ months, which is not the advice I've got from a couple of people on this forum using the co-pitching technique. That confused me a little...

 

[TwistedGray]

Cool, that's about what I figured, though may bottle one a week from the spigot just to be able to do some comparisons (experiment, experiment, experiment ).

What was interesting, I posted something on the "Milk The Funk" facebook group, which is all about sour brewing stuff, and got reamed by a few guys there for daring to suggest you could brew a sour in less than 6+ months, which is not the advice I've got from a couple of people on this forum using the co-pitching technique. That confused me a little...

Be careful with that approach because if you're going to bottle right after you add the fruit you're going to have the reaction of the sugars in the fruit turning to Co2 coupled with the sugar you already have in that bottle... potential for disaster.

 

[TGFV]

Cool, that's about what I figured, though may bottle one a week from the spigot just to be able to do some comparisons (experiment, experiment, experiment ).

What was interesting, I posted something on the "Milk The Funk" facebook group, which is all about sour brewing stuff, and got reamed by a few guys there for daring to suggest you could brew a sour in less than 6+ months, which is not the advice I've got from a couple of people on this forum using the co-pitching technique. That confused me a little...

A huge portion of sour beer flavour doesn't come out until it's been fermenting with the bacteria for months, and that group is particular, and often rightly so, on that account. If you are just looking for a solid pH drop and some flavour then a short ferment works great.

As for fruit, I would let it sit on the fruit for a good while. Even if you take the fruit out after a week, you want stable FG readings to make sure you don't got bombs waiting for you

 

[deeve007]

...you want stable FG readings to make sure you don't got bombs waiting for you

Will definitely NOT bottle until gravity readings are stable! Thanks for the tip to remove fruit and maybe wait a bit longer too, am going to bag my fruit this time after losing a lot of beer in the fruit + yeast trub in a previous beer.

 

[RPh_Guy]

It may currently taste less acidic for two reasons:

1. You tasted the beer before it is finished fermenting, so the beer is still sweet. Sweetness reduces the perception of sourness.
2. The Lactobacilli are in fact probably not entirely finished souring after only 3 days and will continue to produce acid. Adding more Lacto would not be beneficial.

And even though I presume much of the yeast currently floating around giving it this "cloudiness" will drop out once fermenting is done, I'm wondering if this style of beer would benefit hugely from using some gelatin to clear it? Any feedback from anyone that's brewed one?

If you want it to be clear quickly, then yes, you will need to use some kind of fining. Bacteria do not flocculate. It will drop clear or mostly clear with cold conditioning and enough time though.

Personally I don't ever use cold-side fining. Some haze doesn't bother me at all. Fining is likely to increase oxidation, which I try to avoid at all costs.

This may be redundant to tell you, but make sure to use a different set of bottling gear (bucket, spigots, siphons etc) for this beer than for your future beers that aren't sours.

That's unnecessary.

What was interesting, I posted something on the "Milk The Funk" facebook group, which is all about sour brewing stuff, and got reamed by a few guys there for daring to suggest you could brew a sour in less than 6+ months, which is not the advice I've got from a couple of people on this forum using the co-pitching technique. That confused me a little...

Sad to hear that. Unfortunately bad advice regarding sour beer is very abundant.

A huge portion of sour beer flavour doesn't come out until it's been fermenting with the bacteria for months, and that group is particular, and often rightly so, on that account. If you are just looking for a solid pH drop and some flavour then

You are thinking of Brettanomyces, which is a yeast, not bacteria, and it was not pitched into this beer we are discussing

 

[deeve007]

It may currently taste less acidic for two reasons:

1. You tasted the beer before it is finished fermenting, so the beer is still sweet. Sweetness reduces the perception of sourness.
2. The Lactobacilli are in fact probably not entirely finished souring after only 3 days and will continue to produce acid. Adding more Lacto would not be beneficial.

Great info, thanks! So I'll be patient...

 

[TGFV]

It may currently taste less acidic for two reasons:

1. You tasted the beer before it is finished fermenting, so the beer is still sweet. Sweetness reduces the perception of sourness.
2. The Lactobacilli are in fact probably not entirely finished souring after only 3 days and will continue to produce acid. Adding more Lacto would not be beneficial.

If you want it to be clear quickly, then yes, you will need to use some kind of fining. Bacteria do not flocculate. It will drop clear or mostly clear with cold conditioning and enough time though.

Personally I don't ever use cold-side fining. Some haze doesn't bother me at all. Fining is likely to increase oxidation, which I try to avoid at all costs.

That's unnecessary.

Sad to hear that. Unfortunately bad advice regarding sour beer is very abundant.

You are thinking of Brettanomyces, which is a yeast, not bacteria, and it was not pitched into this beer we are discussing

I was suggesting the spare equipment due to the active bacteria that would be potentially present in the gear, even after basic sanitation and cleaning, which from what I've read here and other groups is the common practice for non kettle sour beers (though there may have been new research showing this unnecessary that I haven't seen, I've only just gotten back into sours).

And for the aging, I know Brett and Paed take much longer to get their full flavour profiles up to snuff, but I was also under the assumption that several Lacto and other LAB species also matured and aged to a noticeable degree, but that their souring effect was what was so rapid about them.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I was suggesting the spare equipment due to the active bacteria that would be potentially present in the gear

Lactobacillus plantarum is a game-changer for making sour beer.
It's super clean, it produces a robust sourness at room temperature, and it's extremely hop-sensitive.

Being so hop sensitive makes it so that even if you're bad at cleaning, it won't grow or make acid in a hopped beer.

Kettle souring is a relic from when a lot of brewers were sour mashing or using grain for souring wort. In that case it makes sense to kill the wild culture because there may be any number of undesirable bacteria and/or yeast species that would not be good in a fast sour.
Using more hop-tolerant species like L. brevis also may lead to concerns for contamination if you don't kill it and don't clean properly.
However, I find that proper cleaning is not difficult and cross-contamination does not occur while using one set of equipment even for Brett, Pedio, and other wild microbes. For example I rinse fermenter immediately after use, soak with warm PBW (which is a broad-spectrum anti-microbial), and rinse again. Break down spigot and soak separately. A quick rinse with warm citric acid solution helps remove buildup, followed by another rinse. Any reasonable no-rinse sanitizer is fine immediately before use.

Another common outdated belief is that kettle souring requires heat. While that's true for most species, with L. plantarum that's not the case. This allows us to easily co-sour and post-sour.
Avoiding having wort sitting in the kettle for days actually results in less risk of contamination. I've seen lots of contaminated kettle sours.

I was also under the assumption that several Lacto and other LAB species also matured and aged to a noticeable degree

Most of the desirable flavor from bacteria is expressed within a few days (e.g. lemony citrus, berry, peach, melon, tea, smoke, yogurt, etc).
If you leave it go uninhibited, there will indeed be a bit more "complexity" that develops within a couple weeks. A lot of that extra complexity comes from isovaleric acid production, and this might not be desirable to you (I don't particularly like it). Extended aging beyond a couple weeks doesn't do anything, at least for the bacteria blend that I use.
I typically suggest adding a small amount of hops via dry hopping or hop tea after it reaches desired sourness (within a few days). While hops don't outright kill the Lacto, the bacteria go into stasis and don't further contribute flavor or acid, thus preventing the isovaleric acid production.

Isovaleric acid (or production of any other unwanted compounds) isn't an issue if you use Brett because Brett just eats anything undesirable and poops out awesomeness.

Cheers

 

[mashpaddled]

Using only sacc and lactobacillus is definitely going to create sour beer generally within normal clean brewing timeframes. If you were pitching a blend with brett and/or pedio you would definitely want to wait out a longer timeframe.

 

[TGFV]

Lactobacillus plantarum is a game-changer for making sour beer.
It's super clean, it produces a robust sourness at room temperature, and it's extremely hop-sensitive.

Being so hop sensitive makes it so that even if you're bad at cleaning, it won't grow or make acid in a hopped beer.

Kettle souring is a relic from when a lot of brewers were sour mashing or using grain for souring wort. In that case it makes sense to kill the wild culture because there may be any number of undesirable bacteria and/or yeast species that would not be good in a fast sour.
Using more hop-tolerant species like L. brevis also may lead to concerns for contamination if you don't kill it and don't clean properly.
However, I find that proper cleaning is not difficult and cross-contamination does not occur while using one set of equipment even for Brett, Pedio, and other wild microbes. For example I rinse fermenter immediately after use, soak with warm PBW (which is a broad-spectrum anti-microbial), and rinse again. Break down spigot and soak separately. A quick rinse with warm citric acid solution helps remove buildup, followed by another rinse. Any reasonable no-rinse sanitizer is fine immediately before use.

Another common outdated belief is that kettle souring requires heat. While that's true for most species, with L. plantarum that's not the case. This allows us to easily co-sour and post-sour.
Avoiding having wort sitting in the kettle for days actually results in less risk of contamination. I've seen lots of contaminated kettle sours.


Most of the desirable flavor from bacteria is expressed within a few days (e.g. lemony citrus, berry, peach, melon, tea, smoke, yogurt, etc).
If you leave it go uninhibited, there will indeed be a bit more "complexity" that develops within a couple weeks. A lot of that extra complexity comes from isovaleric acid production, and this might not be desirable to you (I don't particularly like it). Extended aging beyond a couple weeks doesn't do anything, at least for the bacteria blend that I use.
I typically suggest adding a small amount of hops via dry hopping or hop tea after it reaches desired sourness (within a few days). While hops don't outright kill the Lacto, the bacteria go into stasis and don't further contribute flavor or acid, thus preventing the isovaleric acid production.

Isovaleric acid (or production of any other unwanted compounds) isn't an issue if you use Brett because Brett just eats anything undesirable and poops out awesomeness.

Cheers

Thanks for the info!

 

[deeve007]

Using only sacc and lactobacillus is definitely going to create sour beer generally within normal clean brewing timeframes. If you were pitching a blend with brett and/or pedio you would definitely want to wait out a longer timeframe.

Down the track for that, keeping things as simple-ish as possible for the moment, which this co-pitching technique has made sour brewing it seems (though let's wait until we taste this batch before presuming too much ).

 

[deeve007]

So it's been a week in the fermenter after co-pitching, and I have to admit I'm extremely impressed with how the combo is going. Took out another small sample, and it's almost drinkable as a lemony sour right now straight from the fermenter, without carbonation or any fruit additions. I've certainly paid money for worse "sours" in the past...

I took gravity reading today, so will leave for another day or two and do so again, once fermentation is done I'm going to bottle a couple of litres "as is", and then do a split secondary fermentation using different fruits, probably raspberry with one and passionfruit the other. Safe fruits, but I might wait until I see if everyone goes well with this before getting too experimental with flavours.

 

[deeve007]

I am going to have to learn to be more patient but couldn't wait to try this so opened it probably a few days early, but already has great carbonation, and the tang & lemon flavour that has come just from the WildBrew Sour Pitch is lovely! It's probably a little "thin" for my liking, so may try this same recipe with some added oats next time (or any other suggestions?). And will see what secondary fermenting with fruits adds too obviously...

This is from a couple of litres I bottled directly from fermenter before secondary fermenting most of the batch on fruits, will be bottling that in a couple of days.

 

[RPh_Guy]

It's probably a little "thin" for my liking, so may try this same recipe with some added oats next time (or any other suggestions?).

My suggestion:
Use brewing water with no sulfate, and 50-80ppm chloride.

 

[TwistedGray]

I am going to have to learn to be more patient ... will be bottling that in a couple of days.

Make sure that you are not bottling too early...I usually sit on fruit for about a month if not longer.

 

[deeve007]

Make sure that you are not bottling too early...I usually sit on fruit for about a month if not longer.

I think what I'll do is bottle half this week, then leave the rest to ferment longer on the fruit, so I can see the difference it makes. I've read others only do a week on fruit and are happy, so good to be able to compare while also having some to drink sooner rather than later.

 

[TwistedGray]

I think what I'll do is bottle half this week, then leave the rest to ferment longer on the fruit, so I can see the difference it makes. I've read others only do a week on fruit and are happy, so good to be able to compare while also having some to drink sooner rather than later.

Are they stabilizing it, or how are they stopping the continued fermentation?

 

[deeve007]

Are they stabilizing it, or how are they stopping the continued fermentation?

I've read of peeps bottling it after a week on fruit (2 weeks total fermentation). I'll obviously need to check to make sure gravity has stabilised.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Are they stabilizing it, or how are they stopping the continued fermentation?

What process are you using that the fruit doesn't fully ferment in a week?

This is a fast sour; there should be plenty of Sacc to eat all of it in a few days.

 

[TwistedGray]

What process are you using that the fruit doesn't fully ferment in a week?

This is a fast sour; there should be plenty of Sacc to eat all of it in a few days.

I guess my use of lacto and not sacc?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Umm, well, I think it's safe to say your experience doesn't apply in this particular case.
OP should be fine with 1-2 weeks.

You can't make beer without yeast (whether it's Sacc, Brett, or an unconventional yeast). Lacto spp (or any other bacteria) don't significantly attenuate wort.

 

[deeve007]

My first sour, and I friggin' NAILED it!!!

I secondary fermented majority of this batch in two different fermenters, one with passion fruit, one with mixed red fruits... the passionfruit one I tasted for the first time today, and it ROCKS!!! I didn't expect it to be anywhere near this good, my first sour ever, but I really can't imaging how it could be better!! (though I'm sure in a year or so looking back I'll think, "How naive..." ).

But seriously, this is as good as most sours I've purchased, at least the more straightforward flavours. And with how simple this recipe was, I'm gonna be able to have loads of fun trying different grain & flavour variations. This WildBrew Sour Pitch is obviously some seriously great sour maker!!

Thanks @RPh_Guy again!!
(and does it always feel this exciting when you NAIL a new beer style/recipe...?)

 

[RPh_Guy]

does it always feel this exciting when you NAIL a new beer style/recipe...?

Pretty sure it does.
I'm happy you had success!

Did you add any hops to it?

Cheers

 

[deeve007]

Did you add any hops to it?

Dry hopped a small amount just to kill all bacteria once it was soured to my satisfaction, as you had advised elsewhere I believe.

And now I have this basic/base sour recipe down I can obviously play with the flavours, souring some other styles perhaps ...etc. So many ideas...!!

 

[deeve007]

Here's a recipe to get some input in, an amazing sour that my local fav brewery did a while back... curry, jalapeno & ginger. None of the flavours dominated, and it somehow just "worked" even though I would never have come up with that recipe myself... so at what stage of the process would they have added the various ingredients?

 

[deeve007]

The other sour I did at the same time as the passion fruit one that rocked above, I used mixed red fruits, mainly because they were quite a bit cheaper than raspberries but the result wasn't quite as amazing as the passion fruit version, though still very drinkable.

It was far less "body" than the passion fruit version, which I'm presuming I can help with adding oats to my next batch (though will likely use raspberries too). Will this also help to bring through the actual fruit flavour a little more?

 

[deeve007]

@RPh_Guy is making a basic gose versus a sour as simple as adding the correct amount of coriander & salt at the right time in the boil?

 

[RPh_Guy]

I guess you could say that. Use pilsner + wheat malt.

If you otherwise modify your water, you can add the NaCl with the other additions.