How to return wort to mash tun recirc?

[doug293cz]

FTR - This is not the right place to debate LOB Methodology. Specifically in point to it's value in home brewing unless you want to explain a better method of LOB brewing.

Umm, this is the "LoDo Discussion and Techniques" sub-forum. This is exactly where such discussion should take place (as long as it's respectful.)

doug293cz

 

[Soulshine2]

FTR - This is not the right place to debate LOB Methodology. Specifically in point to it's value in home brewing unless you want to explain a better method of LOB brewing.

FTR, i believe i just did. I mean whats the sense is doing everything possible to eliminate any oxidation when in the last step before pitching, you do everything possible to do just the opposite?
This is why i dont understand it. Maybe instead of me explaining why I should have a better idea , you explain to me so i may understand your method.
Im not here to argue , im trying to understand.

 

[Robert65]

FTR, i believe i just did. I mean whats the sense is doing everything possible to eliminate any oxidation when in the last step before pitching, you do everything possible to do just the opposite?
This is why i dont understand it. Maybe instead of me explaining why I should have a better idea , you explain to me so i may understand your method.
Im not here to argue , im trying to understand.

Very simply, you only oxygenate wort after active yeast has been pitched. The yeast rapidly scavenge all available oxygen for their needs. At any other point in the process, from milling to mashing, lautering, boiling, chilling, and after fermentation has begun, exposure to oxygen is very harmful, and reactions proceed very quickly in many cases with permanent results. So oxygenation at pitching is a special circumstance, the only time you want oxygen; and it does not have a chance to oxidize wort before yeast consumes it. (On the professional level, there has been much research to see if even oxygenation of yeast at pitching could be eliminated by providing yeast with some other aid to sterol synthesis.) HTH. PS I was a skeptic too. But the beer speaks for itself when you start to apply low oxygen methods.

 

[Schlenkerla]

FTR, i believe i just did. I mean whats the sense is doing everything possible to eliminate any oxidation when in the last step before pitching, you do everything possible to do just the opposite?
This is why i dont understand it. Maybe instead of me explaining why I should have a better idea , you explain to me so i may understand your method.
Im not here to argue , im trying to understand.

Well, that's a little different.

You oxygenate to take out the sulfites that protect from oxidation and it's replaced with yeast that need oxygen and are oxygen scavengers.

 

[Schlenkerla]

I still dont get the LODO thing. I mean I understand what youre trying to do but it still seems like a lot of counterproductive steps .
I gravity transfer because when I did try a pump I quickly lost temperature and I felt the pump impeller added aeration where i didnt want it. Not to mention one more place or process that could harbor bacteria /mold and therefore , infection.
From what Ive read and understood up til now, the cold side ,as long as you dont promote any unnecessary aeration in your process, the hot side process will eliminate yet before the fermentation process ,one is instructed to aerate the wort prior to pitching. I believe this is where most people misunderstand and they think they must oxygenate with pure oxygen rather than a simple splashing about of the chilled wort.
I know of no brewery that purposely adds pure oxygen .
I do make sure I keep my grains sealed and I crush my grain as soon as I can before adding to the mash tun. I gently transfer making sure to not splash any part of the process until it heads into the fermenter,then it gets a slow crack of the ball valve which draws in air to the wort (air bubbles in the clear tubing shows this) which both helps further the chill and aerates it when it enters in a splashing frothing 2 ft drop.
Don't get me wrong .
If it works for you then by all means continue.

I think the professional brewers oxygenate during the transfer to the fermentor with an inline diffuser. I've never saw one that's what I've heard was done.

They don't use sulfites. They do a gas purge before doughing in with an inert gas like nitrogen so dissolved oxygen getting into the wort during the mash is unlikely.

 

[Bilsch]

FTR, i believe i just did. I mean whats the sense is doing everything possible to eliminate any oxidation when in the last step before pitching, you do everything possible to do just the opposite?
This is why i dont understand it. Maybe instead of me explaining why I should have a better idea , you explain to me so i may understand your method.
Im not here to argue , im trying to understand.

No worries.. this is one of the most common misconceptions regarding low oxygen technique. In addition to what Robert already said, I will add that the staling reactions are highly temperature dependent and at mashing temperatures only take a few minutes to complete, whereas at pitching temperature they work much slower. This gives the yeast more then ample time to scavenge all the oxygen introduced during aeration before the delicate malt flavors are lost. You can pitch before which is optimal unless you need to expend sulfites, in which case pitch after but don't wait more then a few minutes.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Looking at your flow chart .... in step 1 if you go kettle -> pump -> mash tun drain you can underlet your grain. I'm not LODO but did adopt this LODO underletting practice and really like how it works. Even mostly pilsner grists which used to give me incredibly tough dough balls wet very nicely with underletting.

I could do that, but this way involves less moving hoses (right?). It's still "underletting" since it fills from the bottom.

 

[Bilsch]

I know of no brewery that purposely adds pure oxygen .

Actually there are a lot of breweries that do just that because it is the most expedient way to aerate.

 

[RPh_Guy]

I'm not going to debate the validity of LOB technique here. I've tried it and it's amazing, when I do it right.

 

[eric19312]

I could do that, but this way involves less moving hoses (right?). It's still "underletting" since it fills from the bottom.

LOL I had to go back and re-read. Post #32 explains. OK sounds good. Nice use of that feature.

 

[Dustin_J]

I just switched to this arrangement from the large loop of silicon hose sitting just on top/under the surface method. Even with fairly slow/moderate recirc speeds, the silicon hose created a whirlpool of sorts around/under the mash cap that I wasn't happy with. The tee sits an inch or two under the surface of the mash, but well above where the grain bed should be. Water testing reveals very little circulation/turbulence on the surface, even when recirculating nearly full bore.

 

[ba-brewer]

As a matter of fact, I do. This was my plan as I was picking out all my new fittings (I'm upgrading to all 1/2" tubing with ball-lock quick connects).

My brew day has 7 flow paths. It'll be single tier with no gravity transfers.

In order:

1. Transfer water from kettle (being used as HLT) to the mash tun.
2. Recirculate the mash through the RIMS.
3. Transfer the wort to the kettle.
4. Recirculate wort through the CFC to chill.
5. Ground water chilling phase.
6. Ice water recirculation chilling phase.
7. Transfer chilled wort from kettle to fermenter.

Hoses are labeled with letters.

View attachment 639366

As to the "why" ... This is the Low Oxygen Brewing subforum. By eliminating oxygen on both the hot side and cold side we can make beer with amazing flavor.

My RIMS needs to return the wort under the surface so there's no splashing/aeration.

Cheers

Are you moving hose A when you go from the top configuration to the second one down(mashing phase)?

If so how do you do that without getting air in the hose, do you have some hardware to help purge it?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Are you moving hose A when you go from the top configuration to the second one down(mashing phase)?

If so how do you do that without getting air in the hose, do you have some hardware to help purge it?

Yes I move hose A. The hose stays full since I only disconnect the top side, so only a small bubble gets in. Otherwise the system stays full until chilling.

Heating the strike water.


Circulating the mash.


I added a spiral nozzle to the end of the return to decrease the turbulence it creates in the mash. It works really well.

 

[ba-brewer]

Thanks for the answer and pics.

Assuming with the straight bulk head pipe and bazooka screen the small bubble goes back into the mash tun and not thru the pump.

The spiral thing is interesting. Did you repurpose something or was it specially build for that purpose?
​

 

[RPh_Guy]

Assuming with the straight bulk head pipe and bazooka screen the small bubble goes back into the mash tun and not thru the pump.

Say the bubble is 5mL...

Ideal gas law (at 1atm and 150F)
n = P * V / ( R * T )
n = 1atm * 0.005L / ( 0.082057L*atm/K/mol * 338.71 K )
n = 0.000179898 mol of atoms in the air bubble

Multiply by 0.21 to get the moles of oxygen...
0.000037779 mol oxygen
0.60446 mg oxygen

Let's also say the mash is about 8 gallons (~30L). 0.60446mg gives 0.02 ppm of oxygen, which will neutralize less than 0.1ppm of sulfite, entirely negligible.

Feel free to check my math.

The spiral thing is interesting. Did you repurpose something or was it specially build for that purpose?

It's just called a spiral nozzle. It's designed to create a spray, so I guess you could say it's repurposed.
https://www.amazon.com/Padory-Stainless-Atomization-Sprinkler-External/dp/B07BT7D2J9

Compression fitting:
https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/comp12tx12fnpt.htm (Bore-thru and nylon ferrule)

 

[day_trippr]

Am I right that your spiral recirculation return would be quite deep down in your mash bed?

Cheers!

 

[ba-brewer]

Say the bubble is 5mL...

Ideal gas law
n = P * V / ( R * T )
n = 1atm * 0.005L / ( 0.082057L*atm/K/mol * 373.15 K )
n = 0.00016329 mol of atoms in the air bubble

Multiply by 0.21 to get the mole of oxygen...
0.000034287 mol oxygen
0.54860 mg oxygen

Let's say the mash is about 8 gallons (~30L). 0.54860mg gives 0.0183 ppm of oxygen, which will neutralize less than 0.1ppm of sulfite, entirely negligible.

Feel free to check my math.

It's just called a spiral nozzle. It's designed to create a spray, so I guess you could say it's repurposed.
https://www.amazon.com/Padory-Stainless-Atomization-Sprinkler-External/dp/B07BT7D2J9

My thought was how to keep the bubble from getting into the RIMS and potentially creating an air pocket around the temp probe. Or to keep it from causing the pump to stall. But the math stuff is good too know.

 

[Schlenkerla]

This is my return manifold inside my empty mash tun. The tubing is 1/2 silicone. It sits below the top fluid level.

In flow is coming from my HERMs HLT.

I drop a load of float balls on my mash to act as a mash cap and an insulator. I also throw float balls on my HLT too. (I thought the first pick was from the MLT both are from the HLT) The balls move around plumbing with ease.

I have two pumps one for the MLT one for HLT- (HERMS).

I've tried lowering strike water DO with Nitrogen (as pictured) I prefer to use yeast scavanging or boiling my water. Mainly due the time is about the same so it's cheaper to do yeast scavanging. 14 grams of yeast is cheaper and more convenient than the Nitrogen. My nitro setup is mainly for serving beer.

Last picture is the DO meter.

Mash recirc. ^

HLT-HERMs ^. This shot I'm doing recirc of the boil discharge in the HERMs coil. Day before brewing.

Float balls on HLT ^

Shot of hose/pump connections ^

Pumps and sight glass ^ Left is MLT, right is HLT.

Another shot of the float balls ^

HERMs Coil inside HLT using Nitrogen to knock out DO ^

DO Meter. ^

 

[RPh_Guy]

Am I right that your spiral recirculation return would be quite deep down in your mash bed?

The height is easily adjustable on the fly. After using it to underlet, I set it to return a few inches below the surface.

Edit: I showed photos earlier: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...-wort-to-mash-tun-recirc.668800/#post-8654361

My thought was how to keep the bubble from getting into the RIMS and potentially creating an air pocket around the temp probe. Or to keep it from causing the pump to stall. But the math stuff is good too know.

I can hear if there's a bubble in the pump. The pump output is at the top so I just turn the pump off for a few seconds to allow the bubble to escape. Easy peasy!
Side note: A lot of people I see don't put the output all the way at the top, like in @Schlenkerla's photos it's off by 60 degrees.

For the RIMS tube, the probe extends down to the tube output (and I use thermal paste in the thermowell), so no amount of air would impair the temperature reading. Also, it's a simple matter of briefly turning the tube horizontally to remove the air.

I love using these heavy duty spring clamps. They're sturdy enough to keep things in place but still easy to move.
Come to think of it I should attach my pump with them too. I don't like that it's bolted to the stand.

@Schlenkerla
Cool stuff and very creative!

 

[Schlenkerla]

One update.... Some of them pictures are dated.

I've added ball valves to each connection with tri-clovers. - Love the tri-clovers.

May seem odd but I also like quick disconnects with tri-clovers.

Even the sight glass is QD to TC.

 

[day_trippr]

Blingy! Gotta wear shades!

What make/model is your DO meter?

Cheers!

 

[Schlenkerla]

Blingy! Gotta wear shades!

What make/model is your DO meter?

Cheers!

It's a "Smart Sensor AR8210" I think I got it for ~$80 off of Amazon. Ali Express has them too. The price kept on coming down every so many days. I got a Gmail email with a discount code eventually. That's when I pulled the trigger.

https://m.aliexpress.com/item/33031467295.html?trace=wwwdetail2mobilesitedetail

I got a Extech awhile back it crapped out shortly after I got the thing. I replaced with a much cheaper version.

What I'm checking is DO Drop. 9-10ppm with fresh filtered tap water. Then yeast scavanging is netting well below 0.58ppm rather quickly. Boiling strike water gets the same results too.

I also check for DO at oxygenating. Active yeast is pitched heavy. I want to expend sulfites and see the DO climb and fall repeatedly. Then let it be after it stops rocketing down. Then I kill my oxygen. Cover my fermentor and set it up to fermentor purge my keg I'm going to fill.

I can pitch at midnight. This is what I'm going on at 7AM.

 

[Amadeo38]

Given that my malty beers have been lacking “pop” lately, I decided to give in and swap out the above copper recirc manifold for the locline setup from brewhardware.com. Beer is still fermenting but time will tell!

 

[ba-brewer]

Keeping the return below the surface is suppose to help too.

 

[Amadeo38]

Keeping the return below the surface is suppose to help too.

I noticed that in one post (the person with the bright orange locline), and will do it next time.

 

[day_trippr]

Probably more important than switching from a copper return...

Cheers!

 

[Die_Beerery]

I noticed that in one post (the person with the bright orange locline), and will do it next time.

With the foam on that, malts not going to be poppin on that one either. Foam = oxygen, Oxygen = oxidation, Oxidation = lacking malt.

 

[Amadeo38]

With the foam on that, malts not going to be poppin on that one either. Foam = oxygen, Oxygen = oxidation, Oxidation = lacking malt.

That’s fine - it’s a kettle sour Berliner with 2.5oz of mosaic in whirlpool, so not expecting a huge malt contribution to the profile. Looking forward to doing it right on the next delicate beer.