Had to have a fermentation intervention

[Sematary]

So, here's the short story - there really isn't a question in here but I'm a fan of telling stories so here is mine about a GF that I brewed on Sunday.
I wanted to make a GF Stout because, well, there aren't any available (at least not where I live) so I did a search, found a basic recipe and with the help of some fine people on these forums I tweaked it then was wondering about that wonderful coffee/cocoa hint that you get from a good stout so I did some research on that and added a light roast coffee and fat free cocoa powder to top off the recipe. It all went really well I thought until, after 24 hours, I realized that there was nothing going in the fermenter. I posted something in a thread someone else had started on the same subject I was curious about and waited for something to happen. Not much - let's put it that way. After 48 hours there was still nothing going on under the hood (or in the airlock) so I took a peek and sure enough, there was nothing happening. I saw a couple of bubbles formed on the top so I thought that maybe it was just really slow. No Krausen, nothing of any note really - just a couple of bubbles and the surface of the wort was flat - nothing going on.

After 72 hours I knew there had to be an intervention. I did some reading about how to get the fermentation going and one of the suggestions was to move the wort to another vessel. So I did.
I cleaned and sanitized the equipment I would need and proceeded to move the wort from the Brewers Best plastic primary fermenter to the carboy. Then I placed the carboy into my kitchen sink and put lukewarm water around it to warm up the wort which was sitting at around 68 degrees at the time (about the same as my house). Within minutes the change was noticeable. I could see the bubbles rising along the side of the carboy and also popping as they reached the surface - something I had not seen when the wort was in the other vessel. I got the temp into the mid 70's and activity was phenomenal. By this morning the temp was steady at 70-72 degrees and there is a nice head of Krausen on the surface and around the walls of the carboy and it is percolating nicely.

It "could" have been that it was fermenting anyway (and probably was) in the original container but it sure didn't look like it and if it was, it was the slowest fermentation in the history of beer (alright - that might be a reach but wth). It is absolutely fermenting normally now. I was originally thinking that I might need to repitch yeast but I don't live near a place to get what I need (WWyeast - 1318 London III) - which I originally had ordered online and it would have been this weekend coming up before I could have gotten to a store that had any other yeast I could have used so I would have taken a huge chance of the wort being permanently sol and probably going down the drain (expensive since it is GF). 14 hours later and it "looks" like I made the right call. I hope I did. It's too late to change the decision but I hope you enjoyed the story.

I'm "thinking" that the coffee, which was in the original steeping process (or maybe the fat free cocoa powder) might have had a negative affect on the fermentation process to start. Hard to say as I couldn't find anything that spoke to that possibility in my research. So, maybe there is a question in there - could either or both of those had this impact on the fermentation process? Or could it have been that the room temperature when I pitched was 68 (maybe even a couple degrees lower) and the wort was 72 been a potential reason for it not kicking off like it was supposed to?

 

[Sematary]

So, it appears the intervention was successful. Almost 72 hours later and the airlock is starting to slow down but it has been pretty steady.

 

[brewGF]

Thanks for sharing the story. Its very possible you could have gotten the same results by giving the fermenter a good shake. Glad it's working please let us know the results. I am interested in brewing a stout. I have brewed something similar to what you have with a lot of dark candy syrup but it ends up a Belgian strong ale and not a stout. The Toasted quinoa will add some toastiness but in mine that character quickly faded in several weeks. I don't know if anyone has really cracked the code and successfully brewed a true Stout gluten free from extract. Perhaps steeping a very generous quantity of toasted grains could do the trick. I will keep trying and share results if I am successful.

 

[Sematary]

Thanks for sharing the story. Its very possible you could have gotten the same results by giving the fermenter a good shake. Glad it's working please let us know the results. I am interested in brewing a stout. I have brewed something similar to what you have with a lot of dark candy syrup but it ends up a Belgian strong ale and not a stout. The Toasted quinoa will add some toastiness but in mine that character quickly faded in several weeks. I don't know if anyone has really cracked the code and successfully brewed a true Stout gluten free from extract. Perhaps steeping a very generous quantity of toasted grains could do the trick. I will keep trying and share results if I am successful.

Well, you know, it's going to be awhile but I know it can be done. Just going to have to keep tweaking the recipe till it comes into focus. I "could" go with straight up sorghum instead of sorghum syrup but that seems kind of pointless until I get a recipe that works to my liking

 

[Sematary]

Btw - if you feel like collaborating, how close to your own recipe does this come?

Start with 4 gallons water (BIAB) (170 degrees)
White Sorghum syrup 3.3 lb
8 oz. Maltodextrin
1 lb Brown rice syrup (added before it began to boil after steep)
2 lb. Amber candy sugar (added before it began to boil after steep)
1 lb. naked gass hog rice malt (60 minute steep)
2 lb rolled oats (60 Minute steep)
1/2 lb light roast coffee beans ground (60 Minute steep)
1/2 lb fat free cocoa powder (60 minute steep)
12 oz. white Quinoa (roasted) (ground) 60 minute steep)
0.5 oz Columbus Pellet 15 Boil 60 min
0.75 oz Columbus Pellet 15 Boil 20 min
0.25 oz Columbus Pellet 15 Boil 1 minute

Wyeast - 1318 London III
Safale s-04 dry ale yeast

OG 1.054

Once I actually got it going, it was fermenting in the mid to low 70's for 2 days.
Has been continuing to ferment for the last 36 hours around 69/70 degrees

 

[glutarded-chris]

My sorghum syrup batches would often start slowly and not ferment aggressively. Not sure what the best way to kick start it us, but my guess is that raising the temp probably was the largest influence. Probably put it where the yeast liked it. You used two yeasts?

I found on my extract batches that they finished thin with less than 1.060 OG. For a stout'ish beer I would think you would want at least that high. You have a lot of steeped content so hopefully that will add a lot.

WOW, 1/2 lb of coffee! That is like 20 to 30 cups of coffee in there, right? Don't drink too many too late in the evening [emoji4]

 

[Sematary]

My sorghum syrup batches would often start slowly and not ferment aggressively. Not sure what the best way to kick start it us, but my guess is that raising the temp probably was the largest influence. Probably put it where the yeast liked it. You used two yeasts?

I found on my extract batches that they finished thin with less than 1.060 OG. For a stout'ish beer I would think you would want at least that high. You have a lot of steeped content so hopefully that will add a lot.

WOW, 1/2 lb of coffee! That is like 20 to 30 cups of coffee in there, right? Don't drink too many too late in the evening [emoji4]

That's still only like half a cup per bottle so that's ok. lol
I never actually thought of it in those terms but I like it. We'll see how it comes out. Still has 2 weeks of fermenting left to go then into the bottles till the end of January

 

[brewGF]

Sure i want to collaborate! My recipe was basically ig jones no non-sense stout which i trust you have come across. I really roasted the grains i steeped which helped impart some toastiness but it still wasnt enough. Maybe your gas hog rice will do the trick ! I never used it. Maybe swapping out the oats for another grain. You used a lot of oats, i could never get them to provide any stout character. 180 candi syrup adds some nice notes and great color. Beyond that i am afraid i dont
More to contribute. I am currently fermenting a hazelnut brown using roasted quinoa and D180 candi syrup. Test jar samples have me excited. If its a winner I will post the recipe. Q: Is the wyeast GF?

 

[Sematary]

Sure i want to collaborate! My recipe was basically ig jones no non-sense stout which i trust you have come across. I really roasted the grains i steeped which helped impart some toastiness but it still wasnt enough. Maybe your gas hog rice will do the trick ! I never used it. Maybe swapping out the oats for another grain. You used a lot of oats, i could never get them to provide any stout character. 180 candi syrup adds some nice notes and great color. Beyond that i am afraid i dont
More to contribute. I am currently fermenting a hazelnut brown using roasted quinoa and D180 candi syrup. Test jar samples have me excited. If its a winner I will post the recipe. Q: Is the wyeast GF?

Yes, it is one of the few Wyeast that is. I believe, at the time, that I was specifically looking for a GF yeast that worked with a stout. Might be worth another look though.

 

[Sematary]

So, I find this a little odd because I've never noticed in any of my other batches before but the airlock on the carboy is still showing signs of life - every few seconds. I would have thought FOR SURE that after close to a week that I wouldn't see anything going on in there.

 

[brewGF]

Doesnt seem too odd, especially if you used two different yeasts.

My most recent thought for a stout is to cold steep some heavily roasted grains for 24 hours and add them to the kettle near end of boil. Maybe 2 lbs.? And maybe not oats as it seems to me they dont impart much toastiness. I was reading about cold steeping for non GF beer recently.

 

[Sematary]

Doesnt seem too odd, especially if you used two different yeasts.

My most recent thought for a stout is to cold steep some heavily roasted grains for 24 hours and add them to the kettle near end of boil. Maybe 2 lbs.? And maybe not oats as it seems to me they dont impart much toastiness. I was reading about cold steeping for non GF beer recently.

Interesting. But what would you use?
Do you have a link to the article/s?

 

[brewGF]

Here is the link
http://brulosophy.com/2017/12/04/roasted-grains-pt-4-cold-steeping-vs-full-mash-exbeeriment-results/

 

[Sematary]

Here is the link
http://brulosophy.com/2017/12/04/roasted-grains-pt-4-cold-steeping-vs-full-mash-exbeeriment-results/

How do the sugars come out if it isn't steeped at a high temperature? He didn't really explain it

 

[brewGF]

I think he is just looking for character and color. Not sure there is significant starch left after a dark roast.

 

[KeinGluten]

On the topic of yeast, I was given to understand that liquid yeast cultures always had gluten due to the barley wort they are cultured in. I just use dry yeast, but if there are gluten free liquid yeasts I'm interested. Do you remember where you found that that yeast is GF? Thanks.

 

[Sematary]

On the topic of yeast, I was given to understand that liquid yeast cultures always had gluten due to the barley wort they are cultured in. I just use dry yeast, but if there are gluten free liquid yeasts I'm interested. Do you remember where you found that that yeast is GF? Thanks.

Wyeast - 1318 London III

 

[skleice]

Where does it actually say that 1318 is truly gluten free? I'd love to use it, but cannot take a chance on it.

 

[Sematary]

Where does it actually say that 1318 is truly gluten free? I'd love to use it, but cannot take a chance on it.

I did a search for gluten free stout yeasts and found that one.

 

[Silly Yak]

I asked Wyeast about their liquid yeast products and here was the reply:

"Our yeast is grown on a malt-based medium, so the short answer is NO, our product is not gluten free. If you are celiac and very sensitive to gluten, your best option would be to find a yeast supplier that grows their yeast in a different media type. Alternative media bases are more common with dried yeast.

Our end-of-production process decants the majority of this malt-based media off at several points, so that the product has minimal media left in it, but we do not do any analysis on it to determine final ppm. Our homebrewing packages for beer come with an inner malt-based nutrient pouch but does not need to be broken to use the yeast. All of our other categories (cider, wine, etc.) contain a pear juice-based nutrient packet but are grown on the same malt-based media.

There are plenty of brewers and cider makers who use our yeast and end up with a final beverage below the ppm threshold for celiac sensitivity but it all comes down to what the healthiest option is for you."

 

[Sematary]

I asked Wyeast about their liquid yeast products and here was the reply:

"Our yeast is grown on a malt-based medium, so the short answer is NO, our product is not gluten free. If you are celiac and very sensitive to gluten, your best option would be to find a yeast supplier that grows their yeast in a different media type. Alternative media bases are more common with dried yeast.

Our end-of-production process decants the majority of this malt-based media off at several points, so that the product has minimal media left in it, but we do not do any analysis on it to determine final ppm. Our homebrewing packages for beer come with an inner malt-based nutrient pouch but does not need to be broken to use the yeast. All of our other categories (cider, wine, etc.) contain a pear juice-based nutrient packet but are grown on the same malt-based media.

There are plenty of brewers and cider makers who use our yeast and end up with a final beverage below the ppm threshold for celiac sensitivity but it all comes down to what the healthiest option is for you."

I don't have celiacs but I was led to believe this was gluten free. Oh well. Live and learn - stick with dry yeast next time (maybe). lol

 

[Legume]

I often use (non GF) liquid yeasts, it just takes a bit of work.

I Make a starter.
Cold crash, decant off the liquid media.
Use some of the yeast sludge to make another starter.
Cold crash again, decant off the liquid media...pitch.

I figure this removes the vast majority of the gluten.
Normally I overbuild the second starter and save a little yeast in the fridge for future starters/batches.
I often keep the culture going for 5 to 10 batches.

 

[KeinGluten]

I believe that if each time you make a starter, you just take a little bit from your original batch to make a starter, you can keep it going for a large number of batches, because you are making your starter from the "first generation" each time. The general recommendation from what I've seen is to only repitch the same yeast (collected from the lees of one fermentation than washed and pitched into another) 10 times. If you split the original starter 10 ways, you could easily go for 90 batches (counting the starter as the first batch step), but it could probably be split into smaller pieces than 1/10 of the original, assuming a starter is made each time you take a little bit from the original culture.