English Style IPA - came out to sweet and trying to fix

[Fidelity101]

Recipe:
Steeping Grains: 1 pound of 30L
3.3lbs of Golden Light Malt Extract
3lbs of light Dried Malt Extract
8oz of table sugar
4oz of Molasses
Bittering: AA 4.8% 1 oz of Northern Brewer.
Flavoring: AA 16.3% 2oz of Galaxy. Last 13 minutes.
Aroma: AA 13.3% 2oz of Citra. Last 5 minutes.

I also added 1 pound of Wheat and Oats along with 2 pounds of Golden Light Malt Extracts for the Enzymes and soaked them for 10 minutes at 160F. I did this after steeping the grains and before the boil.

So this is an extract recipe and this was the third time I've made this English Style IPA...although I keep modifying it slightly each time. It started fermenting within 12 hours and I transferred to secondary after 5 days and kegged after sitting in the secondary for 6 days. SG was 1.052 and FG was 1.014. I never took gravity measurements in between but that's something I should probably start doing.

The beer tastes good but it's a bit too sweet for my tastes so I'm trying to figure out how to fix it as well as how to fix future batches.

Current Batch:
It's already carbonated and cooled to 38F (serving temp) so I'd like to know the best way to dry this beer up a bit or at least take away some of the sweetness. Should I try dry hopping another 1oz of Northern Brewer or maybe even step up to Simco which is 13.3% AA? Should I take some Founders "All Day IPA" and maybe dump 6 cans into the beer to counter the sweetness. I say Founders ADI because I had one in the fridge and doing a taste test between the two was night and day.

Future Batch:
This was an English Style IPA and from what I've read this sweetness is more common in English Styles than American Styles so I'm curious what changes I should make going forward to make it less sweet (more dry).

 

[rburrelli]

What yeast did you use? What mash temp?

Less caramel malts might help. I like your blending idea but I don’t think that helps going forward with recipe tweaks.

 

[lowtones84]

Yeast choice could certainly help dry it out, and how you treat the yeast as well.

If you want it more dry, I would probably drop the molasses and replace one of the pounds of DME with sugar or so. Like 5 lbs. DME 1 lb. sugar, or 5.25 and .75 or so. If you like that flavor that molasses brings, look into making your own invert sugar, which will both dry it out and add some flavor. It does take a little work, but is totally worth it for English beers.

http://www.unholymess.com/blog/beer-brewing-info/making-brewers-invert/comment-page-1

I also might finish with English hops, but if you're more into the American hop flavor, then go for it.

 

[Fidelity101]

What yeast did you use? What mash temp?

Less caramel malts might help. I like your blending idea but I don’t think that helps going forward with recipe tweaks.

Yeast: Nottingham 1 packet
Mash Temp: I added the grains (in a bag) to the cold water and heated the water to a boil. I then removed the Grains and added 1/2 gallon of cold water to lower temp to 160F. I then added 2 pounds of the dry malt extract and 1 pound of wheat and oats and let this sit for 10 minutes before removing the wheat oats and bringing it to a boil where I set a 60 minute minute and added the first round of hops.

 

[Fidelity101]

Yeast choice could certainly help dry it out, and how you treat the yeast as well.

If you want it more dry, I would probably drop the molasses and replace one of the pounds of DME with sugar or so. Like 5 lbs. DME 1 lb. sugar, or 5.25 and .75 or so. If you like that flavor that molasses brings, look into making your own invert sugar, which will both dry it out and add some flavor. It does take a little work, but is totally worth it for English beers.

http://www.unholymess.com/blog/beer-brewing-info/making-brewers-invert/comment-page-1

I also might finish with English hops, but if you're more into the American hop flavor, then go for it.

Thank you and I apologize in advance if this is a foolish question but how do I tell if the malt I'm using is a caramel malt or a dry malt? Does all malt extract add a level of sweetness?

I ask because my latest (not yet taste tested) batch called "Anniversary IPA" used 3.3lbs of Pilsner Light Malt Extract, 1lb of Gold Dried Malt Extract and 1lb of honey. The FG on this new one is suppose to be 1.015 and since this current batch is far sweeter than I'd like, I want to see what I can change in future batches in order to dry things up a bit.

 

[IslandLizard]

You seem to confuse the term "dry" in regard to it's applications.

Dry malt (extract) [abbrev. DME] vs. liquid malt (extract) [abbrev. LME].
=> Neither will produce a drier tasting beer than the other.
DME is a powder, LME is a syrup, the consistency of honey.

Dry hop vs. boil hop.
=> Neither will make beer taste dryer. It's refers to the method.

Dry malt vs. Caramel malt.
=> They're 2 entirely different things.

Dry malt is referring to dry malt extract (DME).
Malt extract, either DME or LME, is a form of sugar, mostly consisting of malt sugar: maltose and maltotriose, as well as dextrins.

• Maltose and maltotriose are different sugars than sucrose (table sugar) or glucose (aka dextrose or "corn sugar").
• Maltotriose is not fermentable by some beer yeasts (many British yeasts), leaving a sweetness behind.
• Dextrins are non-fermentable by most beer yeasts.

Caramel (or Crystal) malt is a grain. Needs to be steeped (or mashed) to extract the sugars it contains. Many of those sugars are unfermentable (by most regular beer yeasts), leaving a characteristic residual sweetness, with a flavor depending on how dark the malt is.

 

[Calder]

Not much you can do about this batch now.

Extracts don't have any enzymes. You pretty much wasted the wheat and oats. They will have contributed some haze forming starches. You some base malt grains to mash (2-Row, Pale Malt, Pilsner, etc. Keep mash temp between 148 and 155 F for 20 mins and you will convert the starch to sugar (roughly 1.5 quarts per lb). Add the steeping grains to the mash (30L Crystal), as they have starches that will convert with enzymes present (base malt).

1 lb of Crystal is probably more than you need, and just adds sweetness. Try dropping it to a half or 3/4 lb.

Notty is a good yeast, but with all the extract, it is hard to get the beer 'dry'. Learn to do a mini mash of 3 to 4 lbs, and mash low (~148 F), and that will help dry out the beer. Replacing extract with plain table sugar will also help dry the beer out (extract ferments ~ 75%, while sugar ferments 100% leaving no sweetness). You already have enough sugar, adding more will thin out the beer.

 

[IslandLizard]

What @Calder says.^

Read Palmer's HowToBrew.com. Good for starters, it's the older, online source.
The modern day version of the book (with a lot more content than the site) is currently in it's 4th. Ed.
Very recommended!

 

[IslandLizard]

added 1 pound of Wheat and Oats along with 2 pounds of Golden Light Malt Extracts for the Enzymes and soaked them for 10 minutes at 160F.

As @Calder said, there are no enzymes in the extract, it won't convert any of those starches to sugars.

When you do a mash/mini mash/partial mash, 160F is too hot. 148-158F is about the right range for diastatic conversion of starches to sugars ("saccharification rest"). It needs an hour, not 10 mins. 10' is not even enough to totally hydrate the (flaked) grain.

 

[Fidelity101]

Thank you for the tips all. I've only made 5 batches to date so I've still got a lot to learn. Most of them have been a bit too sweet for my taste and this information should really help me fine tune my process.

 

[IslandLizard]

Most of them have been a bit too sweet for my taste

Aside from tweaking your brewing techniques and adjusting recipes, such as using more sugar, a more attenuative yeast (most British yeasts are not) there are a few other options, one being currently popular is Gluco(amylase)!

Gluco will definitely dry out your beer. FGs in the 1.000 - 1.004 (and below) are very common with Gluco. Plus it gives you more alcohol and less carbs.

 

[Fidelity101]

I have a batch of Anniversary IPA which had a SG of 1.062 and a suggested FG of 1.015. I'm worried that a FG of 1.015 will make it a bit sweet tasting as well but I haven't tried any yet. If that happens to be the case, would this Gluco (or another yeast) allow me to get the FG down closer to 1.010?

This is the yeast that came with the kit...it's SafAle S-33. The only other yeast I have on hand is Nottingham but I could go pickup some other yeast if anything else would get me closer to 1.010. The ingredients were 3.3lbs of Pilsner Light liquid malt extract, 1 pound of Gold Dried malt extract and 16oz of honey.

 

[thehaze]

FG rarely has anything to do with sweetness or the lack of it, in a beer. S-33 is a good yeast, if treated right. Low attenuator, so don't expect more than 70% apparent attenuation. If your OG comes out at 1.062, the yeast will not go lower than 1.018, probably. And it's not bad, especially because you are using it in an IPA.

So becauise it's an IPA, you will need to balance the beer and the " dreaded " sweetness by adding more hops. Make sure you have enough IBUs and be generous with hops.

Every time I've used S-33 it finished quite high. I had an IPA finish at 1.022 from 1.064. So 5.5%. 75 IBUs. Lots of hops at 60, 20, 15, 10, 5, 1 and whirlpool and 5.5 oz in the dry hop. The resulting beer was pure grapefruit juice and grapefruit rind, bitter, clean, crisp, it felt and tasted dry - there was a good level of sulfates in the beer... So don't be afraid of numbers. They don't tell the whole story.

 

[Miraculix]

Sorry mate, but this is not an English IPA, this is... I don't know what.... A mess.

An English IPA (the historical ones, the modern ones are pretty much like American ipas) typically consists of a base malt, maybe some simple sugar, English hops and an English yeast.

Nottingham ticks the box yeast wise, but all the rest does not.

If you are only using extract, try using only the lightest malt extract you can get and use only one English hop, such as Golding's and use also ten percent sugar. Nothing else.

This is fairly easy and should get you in the right direction. It will be nice and as dry as you can get without the use of enzymes.

You can stay with Nottingham.

 

[Fidelity101]

I apologize as I originally asked a questing about an English Style IPA rather than specifying that my concern was more about the final gravity than the specific beer. I then switched over to the current batch I was making called "Anniversary IPA" which I think is more like an American IPA, but the FG was again a concern. It's suppose to be drier, more alcohol and significantly more hops start to finish including dry hopping with 1oz.

Thank you "thehaze", you just answered my question before I could ask it. The "Anniversary IPA" had a starting graving of 1.062 and I just took a FG measurement of 1.021 which worried me as it was suppose to be 1.015. It doesn't taste sweet at all! In fact, the English Style IPA I started this thread with had a FG of 1.014 and taking a sip of that tastes extremely sweet while the "Anniversary IPA" with FG of 1.021 doesn't even have a hint of sweet flavor, at least from what I can tell of the beer before I carbonate it. So based on comments from thehaze, I'm going to leave it alone to carbonate and drink.

Looking back at my notes, I was only in the primary fermentor for 4 days. The instructions said 4-7 days in primary if using a fermentor but I should have waited at LEAST a full week. All of my beers to date have been higher FG than expected and all of them have been on the short side in the primary so that's my take away lesson! LEAVE IT IN THE PRIMARY FOR AT LEAST A WEEK!!!!

Thanks all and happy brewing.