Black IPA Feedback

[bolus14]

I found this recipe at this site:
Recipe - http://www.bear-flavored.com/2013/01/brew-day-and-recipe-to-explore.html
Tasting Notes - http://www.bear-flavored.com/2013/03/tasting-notes-black-ipa-with-black.html

I'm thinking of making this close to the fall, but the IBU's seem really high, more than half coming from the bittering addition. Any thoughts on whether the dark grains might help smooth that out a bit. I'm not a huge hop head, have started trying more IPA's, prefer ones that aren't as piney, resiny or strong on the grapefruit rind. I like more orange/lemon citrus, most New Zealand hops, and prefer East Coast style over West Coast, if that makes sense.

Also, any thoughts on yeast, any thoughts on the offerings from Wyeast or White Labs, or a different yeast provider?

Dark Woods (American IPA)

Efficiency: 65%
Original Gravity (OG): 1.062 (°P): 15.2
Final Gravity (FG): 1.015 (°P): 3.8
Alcohol (ABV): 6.17 %
Colour (SRM): 47.1 (EBC): 92.8
Bitterness (IBU): 94.6 (Tinseth)

84.48% American - Pale Ale
7.93% German - Chocolate Wheat
5.31% German - Chocolate Rye
2.28% German - Carafa II

1oz Pacific Gem (15.4% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (First Wort)
1oz Bramling Cross (6.5% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil)
2oz Brewer's Gold (9% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil)
1oz Pacific Gem (15.4% Alpha) @ 10 Minutes (Boil)
1oz Bramling Cross (6.5% Alpha) @ 3 Days (Dry Hop)
1oz Brewer's Gold (9% Alpha) @ 3 Days (Dry Hop)
2oz Pacific Gem (15.4% Alpha) @ 3 Days (Dry Hop)


Single step Infusion at 148°F for 60 Minutes. Boil for 60 Minutes

 

[grassfeeder]

I wouldn't use any of those hops in a good CDA to be honest. I'd still use typical IPA hops like Cascade, Centennial, Simcoe, Columbus, Citra.

If you want to tone down the IBU's look to move that 10 minute addition to 1 minute.

 

[bolus14]

I understand where you're coming from in saying you wouldn't use those particular hops. To me, that's what I find appealing. I'm not a big "C" hop fan and the sound of some dark berries and a little wood I think would be a nice change. I'll play with the late hops, moving them towards 1-5 min and maybe cutting the bittering to .5-.75 oz.

 

[dstockwell]

I would say use whatever hops give you the flavor profile you're looking for.

 

[Staylow]

I'd leave the recipe as is, but scale back the bittering addition until you're at 60-70 IBU.

 

[crusader1612]

It'll be very different to a standard American Black IPA - More of a Black English IPA based on your hop additions.
Might be tasty although I think you'd want some crystal malt in ther in place of some of your roasted malts (all of the malts used are roasted in some way.)
If it was me I'd swap Choc Rye with CaraMunich II or C60. - The Rye Might make it a bit muddledwith the already interesting Hop Combination.

I'd also drop you Pac.Gem Dryhop back to 1oz with the rest of them. Its quite peppery IMO.

 

[grassfeeder]

look at the use of midnight wheat as well.

 

[bolus14]

Which grain would you think of swapping with the midnight wheat? I think the original recipe wanted some roast character to the beer. Seeing that it has chocolate and carafa 2 the roast flavors could.come from either of those. Swapping midnight wheat should bring the roast down and add some smoother chocolate.

Not a bad though, it would be interesting to make it both ways.

 

[m00ps]

I always recommend using some sugar for a black IPA. I've had way too many commercial ones that werent even close to a dry finish. Here's an excerpt from an article I did a while back on general notes for black IPA recipe design. May be something to consider.
Black IPA. These are tricky. My main goal here is to make something as far removed from a hoppy stout as possible. This means keeping it dry (notice a pattern here?), and minimizing roast flavors, while still achieving a pitch-black color. Unless you are using dyes, you will need some sort of roasted malt for color. De-bittered malts are definitely the way to go. I’ve used carafa III, blackprinz, and midnight wheat with success (midnight wheat being my preference). I’ve found one pound in a five-gallon batch will get you dark enough to not see through it at all. The thing is, even de-bittered malt retains some degree of roast. To keep this in check, I have been adding half of my darkening malt in the mash, and leaving out the other half until mashout. This seems to work very well. One other thing to note is the hop selection for Black IPAs. Not all hops lend themselves to the roasty flavors found in Black IPAs. I’ve found piney, resiny/dank, and citrusy hops work best for my tastes here.

 

[jjeffers09]

I recommend Blackprinz rather than carafaII and try replacing FWH with Columbus for that earthy bitterness

I also like dark brown sugar to keep the FG low and dry

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

Which grain would you think of swapping with the midnight wheat? I think the original recipe wanted some roast character to the beer. Seeing that it has chocolate and carafa 2 the roast flavors could.come from either of those. Swapping midnight wheat should bring the roast down and add some smoother chocolate.

Not a bad though, it would be interesting to make it both ways.

I don't see any problems with your grain bill. I would keep it as is. Though I would take m00ps advice on the sugar. I use a dark Belgian candi sugar (its already black so who cares), not only does it help dry it out, but it adds some dark fruit without leaving sweetness behind (as some crystal malts want to do). I don't think you need this, but some straight table sugar, 4-6oz, should go a long way to drying the beer out.

As for the hops, I've had a delicious black IPA with hops that lend the tropical fruit and citrus, and it was delicious. I've also had black IPAs with the more, pine and dank hops, and just as delicious. So stick with hops you like, if you think you will like the flavor profile of your hop bill, you probably will end up liking it.

Also as m00ps mentioned, 1lb of midnight wheat is great. I was knocked by a judge on my black IPA for lack of roast character when I used a full pound of midnight wheat (still scored a 40 overall, no other roast malts). I recently finished a re-brew of that recipe with some tweaks to address its weaknesses. 16oz of midnight wheat + 4oz of English chocolate malt (338L, sorry I don't have percentages handy), at least to my taste, gives just that barest tinge of roast/chocolate/coffee but the hops still are the show. Why do I mention this? I think your grain bill is fine. (first iteration was tropical fruit hops, this iteration I am using more pine/dank hops and its delicious) Add some sugar, invert syrup in ferment or table sugar to the boil, and you'll be happy with the result (everything else keep the same and it should be tasty).

 

[bolus14]

I always recommend using some sugar for a black IPA. I've had way too many commercial ones that weren't even close to a dry finish. Here's an excerpt from an article I did a while back on general notes for black IPA recipe design. May be something to consider.

Thanks moops, always appreciate your feedback, I follow a couple other threads that you post in frequently. Good point on trying to dry this out, estimated FG is 1.015. Going by the original write up it sounds like the intent was to have a little more body that a traditional IPA/Back IPA, and I 've seen many IPA's F be around 1.015. Are you saying that in your experience something with Black IPA's should be a little dryer? I'm still looking into which yeast to use since I don't have Conan at my disposal, and depending on the strains attenuation I may or may not need sugar to get the FG to drop more.

From my research WY1187 (Ringwood) is supposedly a very close isolate, just requires either extra fermentation time or a diacetyl rest.

I recommend Blackprinz rather than carafaII and try replacing FWH with Columbus for that earthy bitterness

I also like dark brown sugar to keep the FG low and dry

Haven't used Blackprinz but have used Midnight Wheat and like it, give a nice background roast but far from stout like or acrid in any way. I don't have any experience with Columbus so this is a thought I'll look into. After my first 6 months or so of brewing I have steered away from the tried and true hops and been using more of the newer, lesser mentioned hops.

 

[grassfeeder]

I just used San Diego Super on an imperial cda, turned out very clean and dry.

 

[bolus14]

That strain might work. Seems many say it's definitely different than Conan but gives a fuller mouthfeel and favors malt flavor more then Chico. Some have even said it might be the same as WY1450, which I have used and like.

 

[bolus14]

Picked up ingredients to make this today, went with some of the changes others mentioned and ended up deciding to change/add:
All Pacific Gem were changed to Pacific Jade since LHBS didn't have Gem
.25lb Sugar - to dry it out a little bit
Dropped the Brewer's Gold @10 min to 1oz instead of 2
Dropped the Pacific Jade dry hop to 1oz

Others have mentioned that Pacific Jade gives some citrus and pepper, but a few have mentioned it also gives some blackberry taste to the finished beer, so I'm hoping it ends up being close to what Pacific Gem would have.

Need to have this ready to drink in 6 weeks so it'll be a 2-3 week ferment then bottle.

 

[bolus14]

Brew day went well, used a little too much starting water, I do BIAB, so OG ended up being 1.062, instead of 1.064. After about 36 hours I didn't see any airlock activity, so I took the fermenter out of the swamp cooler that had 63 degree water, ambient room temp is 68-70, after 12 hours I still didn't see any airlock activity so to be sure it started fermenting I popped the top off the bucket and saw about an inch to 1.5in of krausen.

The smell and taste of the hydro sample was very good, unlike anything else I've had. I would put it between a porter and an IPA but not the citrusy and bitter IPA's that flood the market, this is definitely a different take on the Black/Cascadian IPA. I'm not one that typically likes hydro samples before fermentation, seem to offer nothing in line with what the final product ends up being. For this one, I wanted to keep whiffing, something intriguing and interesting that was hard to pinpoint, something almost like sweet, smoky, milk chocolate. None of those three being extremely prominent, very interesting. The hops don't give the strong citrus smell/flavor that is typical in IPA's and all Black IPAs that I've had. There's some woody, earthy spice, and maybe some blackberry/black currant aspects in there.

Really looking forward to this one, hopefully the fermentation doesn't twist it too much away from what the hydro sample brought to the table.

 

[bolus14]

After being bottled for a week and in the fridge for a couple days this may be my favorite beer in a while. The dark malts are there in the background and there's a good citrus, lemon like upfront , and a surprising commingling in the middle that just works. I would say that the spice, earthiness, and blackberry/currant in the hops is very muted.

The appearance is jet black, maybe some dark amber highlights on the edge, but it's black.
The smell is citrus along with dark malts, smooth dark chocolate and a touch of coffee.
The taste follows the smell, smooth bitterness, no bite just balances the beer. Mainly lemon like citrus with some earthiness, it works really well. The roast plays a background role and only makes its presence known in the end, seems to make it so the lemon doesn't become sweet or candy like.
Drinkability is great. Doesn't come across as a 6% beer and doesn't make you feel full.