serving temp question

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Aschecte

Aschecte

Brewtus Maximus
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Ok.... Brewing beer I got that part down bottling got that part down too... kegging I'm good to go. My question is this, I just recently built a keezer and I'm using a Johnson A419 control so I have a huge amount of flexibility when it comes to serving temps. What is the ideal serving temperature I read somewhere 45-55 degrees is ideal as it allows the aroma and flavors to fully present themselves. So currently I have the keezer set at 50 degrees with a 5 degree differential so it will bring it between 45-50 degrees on a constant swing when the A-419 kicks the compressor on and off. Does this seem right ? or are most people going lower with the temps than this ? I can't see it being higher than this. Before my chest freezer was a keezer I kept the beer at 36 degrees with a 2 degree diff so it was between 34-36 degrees which everyone told me is to cold and inhibited the esters from presenting. I just wanted to get peoples opinion on this . thanks !!! :mug:
 
There's all kinds of heat gain between dip tube and lips. I think you want to tune your dispensing system to make the latter happy.

So, take your favorite beer glass from its traditional waiting spot to your tap, pour a pint, let the beer sit for a full minute, then take its temperature. Then drink it.

If it's perfect, you're golden. Never change.

If you think it's too warm, drop your Johnson (ok, yeah, I said it ;) ) by five degrees, watch the clock for 24 hours, and do another test. Eventually - perhaps with repeated verification testing, of course - you'll tune your system to exactly where you enjoy your beer best!

Cheers!
 
day_trippr said:
There's all kinds of heat gain between dip tube and lips. I think you want to tune your dispensing system to make the latter happy.

So, take your favorite beer glass from its traditional waiting spot to your tap, pour a pint, let the beer sit for a full minute, then take its temperature. Then drink it.

If it's perfect, you're golden. Never change.

If you think it's too warm, drop your Johnson (ok, yeah, I said it ;) ) by five degrees, watch the clock for 24 hours, and do another test. Eventually - perhaps with repeated verification testing, of course - you'll tune your system to exactly where you enjoy your beer best!

Cheers!
Click to expand...


hahaha thanks for the answer but the drop my "Johnson" that made a otherwise crappy day alright !!! thanks for the laugh I needed that !!!
 
40-43 is a pretty good beer temp. I set my kegerator for 38 with a 2 degree differential. By the time the tap cools down and the warm glass cools, it warms the beer temp to around 41. After holding the beer for a minute or so it seems to be at the perfect temp. I don't drink too fast so I would rather start on the cold side and let it warm up.
 
JRems said:
40-43 is a pretty good beer temp. I set my kegerator for 38 with a 2 degree differential. By the time the tap cools down and the warm glass cools, it warms the beer temp to around 41. After holding the beer for a minute or so it seems to be at the perfect temp. I don't drink too fast so I would rather start on the cold side and let it warm up.
Click to expand...

Hey your in Mahopac !!! I was just working there today !! thanks for the input so from what I'm gathering the 45 degree range is kinda the "ideal"ish temp because if you are serving appx at 41 degrees in glass and it warms it's probably somewhere in that 45 range. I see your point though about keeping the temp a bit cooler though as you have heat gains from the glass and the differential of the serving lines and taps opposed to the actual reading from the probe at the bottom of the keezer.
 
The warmer the beer is, the higher the serving pressure needs to be to maintain the same carbonation level, but the slower it needs to be poured in order to prevent excessive foaming, which means much much longer beer lines. In my experience going much higher than ~42° is just asking for issues with foam, even with longer lines. And as mentioned, the beer will warm up 3-4° as it's poured into a room temp glass. I keep my keezer at 40°, and by the time I start drinking it it's ~44°, and probably over 50° by the last sip.
 
This kinda ties into my question..... Lets say I set my Johnson A-419 to 40 degrees with a differential of -3 degrees which would have the swing between 37-40 degrees. This helps along with a 12 minute ASD ( short cycle delay) from the keezer turning on every 5 minutes. What pressure do I figure my carbonation level at?... for example at 40 degrees & 10psi gives me 2.30 volumes of co2 whereas 37 degrees & 10psi gives me 2.42 volumes of co2 which is still good but, which one do I figure my volumes based on or do most of you just average your carbonation level ? sorry if I'm being obnoxious by splitting hairs as both of these volumes of CO2 are in the acceptable range.... I just like to be as exacting as possible and know where I'm at so I can get repeatable results.
 
day_trippr said:
If you have to run that big a differential, I'd use the colder temperature to dial in your CO2 pressure...

Cheers!
Click to expand...

That's pretty much what I figured.... it's not that I "have" to run that big of a differential I could have a zero DIFF and just maintain a constant 40 degrees. I do the 3 degrees as it prolongs the turn on time of the compressor as well as the short cycle delay. Basically it's to extend the life of the keezer's compressor.
 
Aschecte said:
That's pretty much what I figured.... it's not that I "have" to run that big of a differential I could have a zero DIFF and just maintain a constant 40 degrees. I do the 3 degrees as it prolongs the turn on time of the compressor as well as the short cycle delay. Basically it's to extend the life of the keezer's compressor.
Click to expand...

Depending on how you're measuring temp, the temp swings of the beer itself will likely be much less. Even just one half full keg has a lot of thermal mass. If the beer temp is changing that much, then I'd agree with day_trippr, but it's likely staying near the average temp.

In the end it doesn't really matter though. The perception of carbonation is so subjective, and there are other factors that have a larger impact on the actual carbonation level that most people never take into account, like ABV or altitude. If you have a 4% session beer and a 12% barleywine on tap at the same pressure and temp, the session beer will have ~0.2 vol more carbonation. Most check valves also reduce the pressure to the keg to lower than the gauge reads, but most people don't take that into consideration either.

If you're really concerned about the exact carbonation level in your kegs, you can use a more accurate calculator like this one- http://mcdantim.mobi/easypsig.html
 
Aschecte said:
That's pretty much what I figured.... it's not that I "have" to run that big of a differential I could have a zero DIFF and just maintain a constant 40 degrees. I do the 3 degrees as it prolongs the turn on time of the compressor as well as the short cycle delay. Basically it's to extend the life of the keezer's compressor.
Click to expand...

I've had my keezer set to 1 degree differential for a couple of years. It runs around a 15% duty cycle.

Where do you place your temperature controller probe?

Cheers!
 
I have a digital thermometer mounted on the outside of my kegerator with two wires inside kegerator. It is indicating two temp., one inside a plastic bottle filled with distilled water and the other is inside the kegerator. Only one thermostat to control temp. inside kegerator (danby).

1) Should I control the thermostat to the distilled water or kegerator?

2) And if so, what should I keep the distilled water temp. reading?

3) Should I take the temp. of beer when poured and then adjust distilled water thermometer?

Thanks, for you info.
John
 
day_trippr said:
I've had my keezer set to 1 degree differential for a couple of years. It runs around a 15% duty cycle.

Where do you place your temperature controller probe?

Cheers!
Click to expand...

I don't fully understand what you mean by 15% duty cycle....... I think I kinda understand but can you explain more of what exactly you mean by this.

As to placement of the probe... I literally just built this keezer within the last week so take the placement for now with a grain of salt and I'm open to suggestion as to what to do here.

image-1205971416.jpg


image-258540648.jpg
 
Aschecte said:
As to placement of the probe... I literally just built this keezer within the last week so take the placement for now with a grain of salt and I'm open to suggestion as to what to do here.
Click to expand...

I taped my temp probe to a small water bottle, taped a little insulation over it, and placed it on the hump of the freezer. The water bottle will change temp much faster than a keg, but not so fast that the compressor cycles on when I have the lid open for a few minutes to change kegs, etc.
 
Aschecte said:
I don't fully understand what you mean by 15% duty cycle....... I think I kinda understand but can you explain more of what exactly you mean by this.

As to placement of the probe... I literally just built this keezer within the last week so take the placement for now with a grain of salt and I'm open to suggestion as to what to do here.
Click to expand...

Duty cycle would be the average percentage of time that the compressor runs. The compressor on my keezer typically runs around 8-9 minutes per hour, so 9/60 = 15% (and those "on" minutes are in one shot). Like golf, the lower the number the better.

The way I can run all of my coolers (2 fridges and a keezer) and my ferm chamber with tight differentials is by attaching the controller probes to the side of the various vessels (whether kegs or carboys) and insulating them from external influence.

The thermal mass of the beer within provides humongous hysteresis, so the controllers can be set very tight indeed. And, imo, at the end of the brewing day, what you're most interested in is the beer temperature, not the air temperature inside a chamber.

The probe-and-water-bottle is a smaller version of the same idea. But it is smaller, so it will react to thermal changes much quicker than five gallons of beer, with a larger duty cycle (or inversely, a shorter cycle time - more compressor runs per time).

Finally, hanging a probe in free space at the bottom of a keezer seems to be begging for compressor cycling. It has almost no coupling to the beer, and if I was kicking off a primary fermentation I would have no clue what to set the controller to. But I'd sure as heck set the anti-short-cycle mode to something like 15 minutes.

I am a huge fan of tightly-coupled controllers (though a hair-shy of going the thermowell route). I think it allows all kinds of wonderful things, beyond just tight control of a dispensing system.

I brewed up a huge (110 point) imperial stout last Thursday afternoon, knowing I'd be heading out of town to visit grandkids Friday morning - right about when that yeast would be kicking. I put the carboy in my ferm fridge, attached the probe with a 1" thick chunk of closed cell foam over it and pinned them tight with a velcro strap, set the Love TSS2 controller for 65°F with a 1°F differential, attached the 1" ID blow-off I always use regardless, and headed out of town.

Came home Sunday afternoon to see everything purring along nicely, blow-off certainly doing its job but barely any foam hitting the jug. Uncontrolled, that batch would have painted my entire brewery; over-cooled and the yeast could put out undesirable esters; just right and the yeast do their thing in the best possible way with minimal drama.

Whoops! Sorry about the meandering. Finishing off a keg in celebration of getting my taxes filed and it might be getting the better of me...

Cheers! ;)
 
day_trippr said:
Duty cycle would be the average percentage of time that the compressor runs. The compressor on my keezer typically runs around 8-9 minutes per hour, so 9/60 = 15% (and those "on" minutes are in one shot). Like golf, the lower the number the better.

The way I can run all of my coolers (2 fridges and a keezer) and my ferm chamber with tight differentials is by attaching the controller probes to the side of the various vessels (whether kegs or carboys) and insulating them from external influence.

The thermal mass of the beer within provides humongous hysteresis, so the controllers can be set very tight indeed. And, imo, at the end of the brewing day, what you're most interested in is the beer temperature, not the air temperature inside a chamber.

The probe-and-water-bottle is a smaller version of the same idea. But it is smaller, so it will react to thermal changes much quicker than five gallons of beer, with a larger duty cycle (or inversely, a shorter cycle time - more compressor runs per time).

Finally, hanging a probe in free space at the bottom of a keezer seems to be begging for compressor cycling. It has almost no coupling to the beer, and if I was kicking off a primary fermentation I would have no clue what to set the controller to. But I'd sure as heck set the anti-short-cycle mode to something like 15 minutes.

I am a huge fan of tightly-coupled controllers (though a hair-shy of going the thermowell route). I think it allows all kinds of wonderful things, beyond just tight control of a dispensing system.

I brewed up a huge (110 point) imperial stout last Thursday afternoon, knowing I'd be heading out of town to visit grandkids Friday morning - right about when that yeast would be kicking. I put the carboy in my ferm fridge, attached the probe with a 1" thick chunk of closed cell foam over it and pinned them tight with a velcro strap, set the Love TSS2 controller for 65°F with a 1°F differential, attached the 1" ID blow-off I always use regardless, and headed out of town.

Came home Sunday afternoon to see everything purring along nicely, blow-off certainly doing its job but barely any foam hitting the jug. Uncontrolled, that batch would have painted my entire brewery; over-cooled and the yeast could put out undesirable esters; just right and the yeast do their thing in the best possible way with minimal drama.

Whoops! Sorry about the meandering. Finishing off a keg in celebration of getting my taxes filed and it might be getting the better of me...

Cheers! ;)
Click to expand...

I thought I knew what you meant by duty cycle ( I'm in the hvac business ) I count the duty on mine as 5% run time as it only turns on appx 3 minutes an hour is this correct ? That is with the differential set to 3 and the short cycle delay at 12 minutes. I'm sorry I should have left the reflectix (brand)insulation on the probe.... I do wrap the probe with bubble wrap that I fasten on with ul161 tape to the side of the keg. I pulled it off to show where the probe was, in hind sight I guess it was dumb of me because I didn't give a great representation of the true setup. No worries about the stories I know what it's like to kick a keg !!! Thanks for the help.
 
I'm going to set my diff tighter I do t mind if runs a little more as it doesn't run that often as it is. I'd like to see what my cycle times would be.
 

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