Is my LHBS leading mein the wrong direction?

Hey guys,

I bought the Festa Brew Wheat kit the other day, which is 23 Litres of pre made all grain wort. The instructions say to do a 5 day primary AT MAX.

Even as a new brewer this seems odd to me, and does not fit with everything I read on these forums.

I asked at my LHBS and the employee gave me the same response as the instructions, and said if I leave it in the primary for longer than five days I seriously risk ruining the batch of beer.

Am I crazy for thinking that is a load of ****?

I primary for 3 weeks than go straight to bottles, and my beer tastes great. There is a huge debate over the necessity of racking into a secondary. I think racking off after 5 days is too fast in any case

Are these special yeasties or something?

Suggestion: try a new LHBS.

Also just to ease my curiosity, what are the ingredients to the kit and what type of yeast did they give ya?

Leaving it in primary is not going to ruin your beer. For a wheat beer, which are best when consumed fresh, a 14 day primary (give or take) would be about right, assuming that FG has been reached.

No, you aren't crazy at all. The only way to know when the primary fermentation is done is by taking gravity readings with a hydrometer. When they're the same for 2-3 days in a row, it's done. Even then, it won't hurt the beer to sit on the yeast for another week or two to clean up any fusel alcohols created during the initial fermentation.

Can you bottle it after five days? Probably, but if the fermentation hasn't finished yet, you'll run the risk of creating bottle bombs or just having a "Green" tasting beer for a few weeks or more. The more experience you get when brewing, the easier it becomes to just let the beer run it's course for 3-4 weeks in the primary.

I am at work right now but when I get home I will post the ingredients and the yeast. I knew in my head that this guy was wrong, but figured I might as well ask since I had never done a wheat beer.

The owner of this store is a great guy and extremely helpful, but it seems like his employees either dont know or dont care enough to give you decent advice.

I believe it is Revvy that I always see preach the 1 week primary-2 week secondary -3 week bottle rule, which is what I was going to follow. But this guy at the store just kept saying no way a week is too long in primary!

I guess I should thank the Government of Canada ads that taught me in the 90's to not believe everything I see/hear!

Yeast: Safale S-04

Just looked it up online, this is what comes with the kit. ^^

short of hitting the autolysis point, which is a very long time on the yeast cake, extended times in primary won't hurt. if anything it'll give the yeast a chance to clean up the beer. Time is almost always on the side of the brewer, so for them to say u run the risk of ruining it, in my mind it sends up a flag.

It all seemed wrong as soon as I heard it, but I figured I would be stupid not to at least investigate seeing as I only have 3 batches under my belt.

Thanks for the help!

I just bottled a beer that sat for nine weeks in primary and two in secondary. I pulled a glass at bottling - it was flipping delicious.

Ignore the autolysis boogeyman. This is a nonissue on the homebrew scale unless you really mistreat the yeast (really high temps, really long time).

>>But this guy at the store just kept saying no way a week is too long in primary!

Did you ask him why? Even if one's a complete newbie and doesn't know enough to evaluate an answer one can general get a sense by how one answers whether the guy knows what he's talking about.

Ask why. And depending on whether or not the answer makes any sense ask "and why is this different from any other beer". I mean either there's got to be a big honking reason, or there isn't any reason at all. And a big honking reason ought to land on the floor like a brick.

Matt3189 said:

Hey guys,

I bought the Festa Brew Wheat kit the other day, which is 23 Litres of pre made all grain wort. The instructions say to do a 5 day primary AT MAX.

Even as a new brewer this seems odd to me, and does not fit with everything I read on these forums.

I asked at my LHBS and the employee gave me the same response as the instructions, and said if I leave it in the primary for longer than five days I seriously risk ruining the batch of beer.

Am I crazy for thinking that is a load of ****?

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So after the 5 day primary, what did the instructions tell you to do? Secondary?

I dunno...I'll be the odd man out. 5 days for a wheat is probably doable. Most beers are at/close to FG at this point, and if you have some fermentation temperature control fusel alcohols won't be present, so the yeast don't have to "clean up" (whatever that means, anyway...). Its a wheat, so you don't need to wait until the yeast floc out. So yeah, if the gravity is stable for a couple of days you are probably OK.

IMO, the 3 week fermenation time is a little overkill (particularly for this style), and skewed toward the brewers who doesn't have their process/equipment in check.

broadbill said:

So after the 5 day primary, what did the instructions tell you to do? Secondary?

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The instructions say "3-5 day primary" and "7-10 daysecondary".

However, it is a generic instruction kit that comes with any style Festa Brew they give you.

Matt3189 said:

I believe it is Revvy that I always see preach the 1 week primary-2 week secondary -3 week bottle rule, which is what I was going to follow. But this guy at the store just kept saying no way a week is too long in primary!

I guess I should thank the Government of Canada ads that taught me in the 90's to not believe everything I see/hear!

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Uh, no I preach that that advice is some of the worst piece of brewing advice given. I recomend people either leave their beer in primary for a month, or wait two weeks if you plan on using a secondary, then rack around day 14. Using a hydrometer to determine if fermentation is complete.

3-5 days primary? That's crazy talk. No way the beer will be done by then. And a secondary isn't necessary.

I would leave the beer in primary for 3 weeks and then bottle. And take the rest of those instructions with a LARGE grain of salt.

I've done a google search and it seems you aren't alone.

It seems that all Festa Brew Kits come with one generic set of instructions: This. Which does say primary 3-5 days and then secondary for 7-10 (for a total of two weeks which is ... well, read just about any other thread on this forum). It doesn't actually say any harm will come of more than 5 days or if you simply do one long primary.

I think we've all read enough on this forum to know secondary is a personal choice and longer (total) fermentation is better although two weeks is often an acceptable minimum (although it does seem awfully rushed and certainly isn't an *upper* limit). So yeah... You can safely ignore this. ...I think...

broadbill said:

IMO, the 3 week fermenation time is a little overkill (particularly for this style), and skewed toward the brewers who doesn't have their process/equipment in check.

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Just throwing this out there, but what are the chances that a beginning brewer, the kind that this sort of kit (Festa Brew) would be marketed to, has their process/temps under control?

Revvy said:

Uh, no I preach that that advice is some of the worst piece of brewing advice given.

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Sorry Revvy, mixed up my reading, didn't mean to offend!

EDIT: This is why I should double check what I think I read before posting, it avoids public embarresment in front of homebrewtalk legends.

Once again I apologize!

I'm a little confused by the original post of "23 L of premade all grain wort" ... so you bought 23 L of wort? ( about 6 gall for the US readers)....

broadbill said:

I dunno...I'll be the odd man out. 5 days [..primary..] for a wheat is probably doable. ...

IMO, the 3 week fermenation time is a little overkill

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Okay. But it won't *ruin* the beer as the shop guy suggested.

Get another shop.

ACbrewer said:

I'm a little confused by the original post of "23 L of premade all grain wort" ... so you bought 23 L of wort? ( about 6 gall for the US readers)....

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Correct. All you have to do is pitch the yeast.

Matt3189 said:

Correct. All you have to do is pitch the yeast.

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so wait a second... there's no boiling of hops or anything special grains or adding in lbs of DME or jugs of LME????????


If thats the case, get another LHBS AND another kit. damn.

Northern brewer, austin homebrew or midwest brewery are a good place to get great kits. NB also has VERY detailed instructions for their specific kits.

Matt3189 said:

Yeast: Safale S-04

Just looked it up online, this is what comes with the kit. ^^

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That is not a yeast for a traditional wheat beer, btw.
Anyways, brew the kit and then buy ingredients for your next from a different manufacturer.

Matt3189 said:

Correct. [... buying six gallons of wort ...] All you have to do is pitch the yeast.

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Interesting.

Now I'll be the odd man out and say this seems like the worst of both worlds. It takes all of the control out of making the wort, which is easy and allows creativity and !hecka! fun, but requires all the futzing about with high end equipment, which is hard and nerve wracking.

Well, maybe that's just me. I always preferred cooking to auto mechanics but, supposedly most males are (supposed) to prefer otherwise...

The thing to remember is that yeast can't read instructions and calendars......and sometimes yeast can have a 3 day lag, so if you arbitrarily moving your beer without taking a gravity reading, you can end up interrupting fermentation and having a beer that is stuck, since you took it off the yeast.

We get threads like this all the time.... remember, not every proprieter reads every forum or book or listens to every podcast, so the last book or info they may have learned may be in Papazian from 30 years ago. They also may only brew kits. Or simply JUST be of the "you can't teach an old dog new tricks" mentality.

But not every person, especially one of those "you can't teach an old dog" types aren't going to be up on the latest ideas.

Remember to a lot of LHBS'er or employees, it is only a job..not an obsession...so they are not always as necessarily passionate, or zealous learning new things, or trying new techniques, like we are....SOme even though they have been in the business forever, may never had progressed in the hobby beyond extract kits...some may rarely brew at all.

So often it is not surprising that we know more or are at least in touch with more info that someone who does it for a living....

Many of them are stuck in the old 30+ year old autolysis fear....

I say this with caution because I have never "brewed" (I say loosely because technically these kits arn't brewing, just pitching) anything other than these kits, but of the three I have already made I very much enjoyed them. They are easy, cheaper than buying from the store, give me something to do, and produce a product that I find to be pretty tasty.

Pratzie said:

so wait a second... there's no boiling of hops or anything special grains or adding in lbs of DME or jugs of LME????????

If thats the case, get another LHBS AND another kit. damn.

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They are like the wine kits. You just pour into a fermenter and pitch yeast.

Pratzie said:

so wait a second... there's no boiling of hops or anything special grains or adding in lbs of DME or jugs of LME????????


If thats the case, get another LHBS AND another kit. damn.

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Supposedly the beer is actually excellent.

But then so is the beer at my grocery store and it's ready to drink when I buy it.

Matt3189 said:

I say this with caution because I have never "brewed" (I say loosely because technically these kits arn't brewing, just pitching) anything other than these kits, but of the three I have already made I very much enjoyed them. They are easy, cheaper than buying from the store, give me something to do, and produce a product that I find to be pretty tasty.

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Well if its tasty, thats good. I just prefer more control over my stuff. This is more like an addiction then a hobby and my thoughts/opinion on home brew has evolved alot in the last year, especially since joining here.

if it works for ya, don't mess with it, especially if the end product is tasty. However I really think you shouldn't ask the LHBS store people for alot of advice, especially since uve joined this forum with all the resources and knowledge here.

Either way, happy brewing!

Pratzie said:

However I really think you shouldn't ask the LHBS store people for alot of advice, especially since uve joined this forum with all the resources and knowledge here.

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From now on I think I will do all my question asking on here, (After searching to see if it has been answered already of course, like I perhaps should have done here). It seems everyone is willing to help even with the simple ridiculous questions I have.

Thanks for all the help guys.

Revvy said:

Remember to a lot of LHBS'er or employees, it is only a job..not an obsession...so they are not always as necessarily passionate, or zealous learning new things, or trying new techniques, like we are....

...

So often it is not surprising that we know more or are at least in touch with more info than someone who does it for a living....

.

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Well, that's the noobie's dilemma, isn't it? We know due to our passion that we may be onto something which the sales clerk in his antipathy and desire to get the pesky guy with the irritating questions out of his hair is reluctant is ignorant of and happily so. And yet, we can't assume that we actually know more than the clerk 'cause we're noobies and we *know* that we don't know squat.

You will find various advice on secondary and how long to primary. The simple fact is, there is no one timetable for every person and for every beer.

I can tell you that even a wheat beer for me isn't *done* in 3-5 days. 7-10, maybe.

I generally like to transfer to a keg in about 2-3 weeks, right from the primary, after it's complete, and have dropped mostly clear.

If I'm lazy, or my keg is not available right away, I don't feel bad about letting the bucket sit for another couple of weeks. The fact is, properly prepared beer, with the proper amount of healthy yeast, fermented at the proper temps, is perfectly safe to let your beer sit on for many weeks. Of course, it would be better to lower the temp as much as reasonable, since cooler temps preserves the beer better, but even at 70, several weeks is safe.

What you want to make sure is that your beer has fermented completely, and after that, you can use a secondary to help it clear, or just bottle carefully from the primary after letting it clear as much as you want. Some of this depends on how patient you can be. Remember that when bottling, you may need up to 3 weeks for the beer to carbonate. With kegs, 2 days to a week.

Matt3189 said:

It all seemed wrong as soon as I heard it, but I figured I would be stupid not to at least investigate seeing as I only have 3 batches under my belt.

Thanks for the help!

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Good for you for recognizing that the advice they gave you at the store may not be on the mark. You're not the first one to encounter that issue.

It's not just the occasional ill-informed LHBS employee you have to watch out for, but it pays to double-check (by posting here) some of the printed kit instructions out there. A few of them that have been discussed here are really awful.

Matt3189 said:

It seems everyone is willing to help even with the simple ridiculous questions I have.

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Always. And don't worry if the question may seem ridiculous. Just be sure to ask it BEFORE you take the questionable action(s).