Making LME today

My back has been hurting so thought I could just brew up the grain a little at a time on the stove top(BIAB) using a small pressure cooker, boil it down as much as I can before it starts to caramelize, and save it. At flame-out I could also go ahead and add some additional sugars/fermentables, but these first batches are just the concentrated mashed grain. I removed the valve from the pressure cooker to allow evaporation to occur rapidly.

So do I have to refrigerate homemade LME(concentrated wort) or can it sit out at room temp for a while? Probably refrigerate it, eh?

Boiling in a pressure cooker raises the temperature needed to achieve evaporation. This will not only slow down your ability to remove water, but also increase the amount of chemical reactions taking place (carmelization, Maillard, scorching, etc.) Malt extract I'd made by boiling at a reduced pressure, which increases evaporation and reduces chemical reactions. Unless you have a vacuum chamber available, you won't be able to achieve anything similar to what a manufacturer can do.

Boil it in an open pot, and place fan blowing on it. Keepm in mind, your house will become a Turkish Sauna.

BPS531 said:

Boiling in a pressure cooker raises the temperature needed to achieve evaporation. This will not only slow down your ability to remove water, but also increase the amount of chemical reactions taking place (carmelization, Maillard, scorching, etc.)

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That's why I removed the valve, to solve that problem, so evaporation could occur and it was fast. Just wondering how to store it now. It smells and looks like concentrated wort/LME so I don't understand what is wrong with what I did?

With the valve removed from the top of the pressure cooker, steam came out like you'd see in a boiling tea kettle. I stopped it before it started to caramelize. And if it did caramelize a little, probably will just add to the flavors.

I did good in science class 30 years ago, today, not so sure on things. Not sure why you need a vacuum.

well ive never done this before so I am watching your moves, but yea fridge so nothing calls your warm concentrated wort (LME) home.

I'm pretty sure commercial LME is produced under vacuum and thus lower boiling temperatures to limit Maillard reactions and prevent caramelization.

And even then, while made in a most carefully controlled environment, I'm pretty sure I can taste the effects of condensing.

BobbiLynn said:

I did good in science class 30 years ago, today, not so sure on things. Not sure why you need a vacuum.

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Lowers the boiling point.

What kind of gravity did you end up with?

It's all good... whatever works for you, BUT...
Covering the pot with anything only restricts the boil-off rate.
Increasing the pressure AT ALL will reduce boil-off rate and increase the boiling point, which increases scorching, etc.
Placing a vacuum on the boiling wort will increase boil-off rate, while reducing the boiling point, which reduces scorching, etc.

Now that you've got your extract, I would measure it out into freezer bags and freeze it.

looneybomber said:

Lowers the boiling point.

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Oh, okay. That's why I used the pressure cooker with the valve removed, to reduce the temperature I needed to boil.

I guess with the valve removed it was no longer a pressure cooker. Boil off didn't take much longer than an open boil. Next time I'll time it. Today it was just something to try.

If LME is produced in a vacuum, would that temperature be below 170°?

This sounds like a pretty interesting method to save one's back!?

Why not just brew smaller volumes of beer, ie 1 gallon batches?

hillhousesawdustco said:

This sounds like a pretty interesting method to save one's back!?

Why not just brew smaller volumes of beer, ie 1 gallon batches?

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Brewing a bunch of one gallon batches seems like an awful lot of work. Was planning on saving it until back was feeling better, then I can do a quick 5 gallons at once.

acidrain said:

What kind of gravity did you end up with?

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Gravity of the concentrated wort? I doubt the hydrometer would sink into it let alone give me a reading so don't understand the question. I guess I will try a one gallon batch soon using some of the extract. Maybe the beer will be terrible, I don't see why though. I have done plenty of extract kits that came out better than my all grain batches.

In the winter, I put a tea kettle on the woodburning stove to humidify the air. And I have to keep adding water to it even when the stove isn't that hot. That's why I rigged the pressure cooker to work like a tea kettle. Maybe I should just buy a large tea kettle to use? Would work better than what I rigged for it? That probably would be much quicker. Would have to find a tea kettle the right shape to use though.

flars said:

If LME is produced in a vacuum, would that temperature be below 170°?

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http://www.jbind.com/pdf/Cross-Reference-of-Boiling-Temps.pdf

For sugary solutions the boiling point will be higher relative to the amount of sugar that is dissolved. There are many entries online if you want to study this in more detail.

There is a whole science around sugar processing alone. Boiling off a solvent (water in this case) is a simple task. The physics behind it, can be complex.

BobbiLynn said:

In the winter, I put a tea kettle on the woodburning stove to humidify the air. And I have to keep adding water to it even when the stove isn't that hot. That's why I rigged the pressure cooker to work like a tea kettle. Maybe I should just buy a large tea kettle to use? Would work better than what I rigged for it? That probably would be much quicker. Would have to find a tea kettle the right shape to use though.

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The whole goal of making LME is to remove the water from the wort. Since you're working at atmospheric pressure (not in a pressure cooker to increase the boiling temp, or in a vacuum to decrease the boiling temp), the most efficient way to remove the water is a wide pot with a shallow depth. A tea kettle or pressure cooker is only going to increase the time it takes to remove the water since you're giving the steam an opportunity to condense and fall back in the wort. What you're wanting to do is essentially the same thing as what the folks that make (real) maple syrup do.

BobbiLynn said:

...In the winter, I put a tea kettle on the woodburning stove to humidify the air. And I have to keep adding water to it even when the stove isn't that hot. That's why I rigged the pressure cooker to work like a tea kettle. Maybe I should just buy a large tea kettle to use? Would work better than what I rigged for it? That probably would be much quicker. Would have to find a tea kettle the right shape to use though.

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Tea kettle restrains evaporation. Also hard to clean.

If you were to put an open, wide pot on your stove that water will disappear quicker than from a closed kettle with a narrow spout.

Acidrain's response is spot on. Increase the surface, lower the air pressure (not so easy in your home), use convection (a fan) to blow of the water vapors, etc. will speed up evaporation, and hence condensing (your sugar) solutions faster.

Uncontrolled condensing of your wort to LME consistency will only create weird off-flavors. Not worth the time and money you spend on it, IMO.

The maltsters who make LME and DME try hard to make the best, clean product for the lowest cost. The closer it resembles an AG wort the better their efforts. And even that process with all their specialized equipment and knowledge is not perfect.

Verdict:
Doing smaller batches, 2-3 gallons, may be a better and easier solution for you. Do 2 or more small batches back to back. Saves time on cleanup.

StoneHands said:

The whole goal of making LME is to remove the water from the wort. Since you're working at atmospheric pressure (not in a pressure cooker to increase the boiling temp, or in a vacuum to decrease the boiling temp), the most efficient way to remove the water is a wide pot with a shallow depth. A tea kettle or pressure cooker is only going to increase the time it takes to remove the water since you're giving the steam an opportunity to condense and fall back in the wort. What you're wanting to do is essentially the same thing as what the folks that make (real) maple syrup do.

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Touché !

Okay. I thought that with an open boil, the heat from the stove would caramelize the wort as it thickened. That's why I thought, put a lid on it, but still allow for evaporation. With the lid on it, I was able to turn the heat way down on the stove and still keep a boil(or close enough to make it steam). Was trying to balance the bottom heat source with still allowing for evaporation. With an open kettle and fan blowing on it, seems that the heat source would burn it as it thickened.

Yeah, I'm not even going to try that other method, open boil with a fan, I imagine I would ruin my pan doing that, but thanks anyway for the suggestions. I think I'll stick to my original plan and keep improving on it.

Once the sugar concentrates and the syrup gets thicker, browning (caramelization) will occur at some time. It doesn't matter if it is a kettle or open pot, except the kettle will take longer to get there.

Keeping the heat low prevents excessive burning but at some point there will not be enough water left, the temperature of the sugar syrup will certainly rise and you're starting to make candy. Malt candy.

IslandLizard said:

Malt candy.

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Sounds yummy!!

IslandLizard said:

Keeping the heat low prevents excessive burning but at some point there will not be enough water left

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At the point that there wasn't enough water left, that's when I removed it from the heat. To prevent it from caramelizing or burning. I got one gallon down to less than one quart before this happened.

BobbiLynn said:

At the point that there wasn't enough water left, that's when I removed it from the heat. To prevent it from caramelizing or burning. I got one gallon down to less than one quart before this happened.

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There is a whole science around sugar, sugar products, and products derived from sugar. Very rich topic.

When boiling regular sugar in water it creates "invert sugar." Basically splitting sucrose molecules into its 2 simpler sugars glucose and fructose.

Inverted Sugar

I'm not sure if there is an "invert maltose" equivalent or if the yeast even cares what it eats.

Any darkening of your malt syrup is an indication of caramelization. Depending on your boiling conditions, some Maillard reactions may have occurred too, giving some unique yummy flavors.

In conclusion:
I would probably buy LME or DME rather than home-concentrating wort. But it looks like your experiment worked well so far. Does it taste like LME or does it have stronger caramel flavors?

I'm curious how your beer turns out from your "HME." Keep us posted.

Hope your back gets better. That's what beer is for, ultimately. To make one feel better.

IslandLizard said:

There is a whole science around sugar, sugar products, and products derived from sugar. Very rich topic.

When boiling regular sugar in water it creates "invert sugar." Basically splitting sucrose molecules into its 2 simpler sugars glucose and fructose.

Inverted Sugar

I'm not sure if there is an "invert maltose" equivalent or if the yeast even cares what it eats.

Any darkening of your malt syrup is an indication of caramelization. Depending on your boiling conditions, some Maillard reactions may have occurred too, giving some unique yummy flavors.

In conclusion:
I would probably buy LME or DME rather than home-concentrating wort. But it looks like your experiment worked well so far. Does it taste like LME or does it have stronger caramel flavors?

I'm curious how your beer turns out from your "HME." Keep us posted.

Hope your back gets better. That's what beer is for, ultimately. To make one feel better.

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Sounds confusing, now wondering how they get it gelatin like and prevent the coagulating, clumps separating from the liquid. Maybe just add gelatin at the end? Shaken up, it tastes like LME, or very concentrated wort, I don't detect any burnt or caramel flavors. Extra sugars at the end and something to make it more gelatin-like(so it won't separate), maybe try to cook it down a little more now that the extra liquids have separated?

I do have some extract kits on hand, but also just bought 50 lbs. of grain. Trying to cook down the grain to workable amounts.

BobbiLynn said:

Sounds confusing, now wondering how they get it gelatin like and prevent the coagulating, clumps separating from the liquid. Maybe just add gelatin at the end? Shaken up, it tastes like LME, or very concentrated wort, I don't detect any burnt or caramel flavors. Extra sugars at the end and something to make it more gelatin-like(so it won't separate), maybe try to cook it down a little more now that the extra liquids have separated?

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There maybe an emulsifier in it to help with consistency, but realize these products are made in high-tech facilities that have everything taylored to make an end product that is super stable and appealing enough for people to buy.

I buy LME from my LHBS. They fill plastic bags from 30 gallon drums. And yes it is smooth as silk not unlike molasses. They go through lots of it and is as fresh as can be.

I wouldn't boil it more. You said it started to stick already. That's when the bottom layer starts to convert to caramel. And that becomes unfermentable. Clumping is usually an indication of state changes like crystallization. In the factories they control that precisely, maybe by stirring, extruding, or what not.

Remember they probably work under low pressure (vacuum), so sugar behaves differently too there. Did I mention high-tech?

Make a beer with the LME you made and see how it turns out. Maybe next time you want to cook it a little longer. Maybe not.

I'd hate to see your utilities bill with all that boiling down

BobbiLynn said:

I did good in science class 30 years ago, today,
not so sure on things. Not sure why you need a vacuum.

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You ain't gonna make LME...

http://www.maltcompany.com/process_malt_extract.htm

Denny said:

You ain't gonna make LME...

http://www.maltcompany.com/process_malt_extract.htm

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Hmm... alright, will just cook up the concentrate soon and see how it turns out. Didn't realize this was so difficult or high-tech. Next time, I see I'd have to start with grist, not just well crushed grain, first mistake. I'll just call it something different if I get back to making it.

Denny said:

You ain't gonna make LME...

http://www.maltcompany.com/process_malt_extract.htm

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Thanks for that link. Exactly what we need to substantiate the process.

The wort is fed into a series of multi stage stainless steel falling film evaporator steps to concentrate it into to a viscous liquid. Evaporation takes place under vacuum in order that lower temperatures can be used....

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It's the film evaporator (rotating vessel) that does the bulk of the work and of course it runs under vacuum.

I think she's making "HME," Home Malt Extract.

IslandLizard said:

Thanks for that link. Exactly what we need to substantiate the process.

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My Google-fu is strong today!

Denny said:

You ain't gonna make LME...

http://www.maltcompany.com/process_malt_extract.htm

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The "HME" is getting clumpier after refrigeration. Shook it up again, will have to try and use it soon.

BobbiLynn said:

The "HME" is getting clumpier after refrigeration. Shook it up again, will have to try and use it soon.

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It's forming crystals. They will dissolve later. Don't worry about that.