What kind of mash am I doing?

I'm using Beersmith and there are tons of mash options, fly sparge, batch sparge, something about stepping, etc.... Here's my process and I'm hitting my efficiencies within .1-.3% ABV so I'm going to keep doing it this way unless someone says I'm just doing it in the most effed up way possible.

10 Gal Igloo Converted mash tun w/ false bottome and drain thingy

Pour in double-crushed grain

Add water at temp beersmith tells me to after I get the temp of the grain and put that in with the temp of the mash

try to eliminate any clumpy areas in the tun with a long wooden paddle

keep thermometer in there until the mash water / grain reaches the desired temperature

Seal lid and cover lid with a bunch of towels since most of the heat loss happens there.

I almost always mash for 2-3 hours even if it only calls for 60 minutes to get the most possible sugar content

Drain into kettle, bring kettle "wort" up to 170

Pour wort back into mash tun, (repeat 3 times)

Drain wort into kettle a 4th time.

My home water runs about 140-170 on the highest temperature (i've measured it, not even joking thank goodness we don't have any small children) so I put my kitchen extendable faucet on the multi-spray setting (like a shower head) and pour that over the grain leaving the spout open into the kettle

Once the kettle is at 5.75 Gallons (5 gallon batch), I move it to the Propane burner and reach boil, adding hops etc...usually, I have exactly 5 gallons left after a 1 hour boil, cool with worth chiller, transfer to carboy, pitch yeast.

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I've done this the last 4 batches and have hit my efficiency (65-70%) so I don't think I need to change anything but I need to know what kind of mash / sparging I'm doing and if there are some tweaks I should make to improve things.

Thank you.

Looks like you are doing the hybrid wort-based-batch-rinsing-finalized-with-sink-fly-sparging method - a very common method (joking)

Overall, I would simply call it a non-traditional fly sparge with a prerinse using first runnings.

Sounds like a weird combo variation of batch sparging/fly sparge.
FIRST of all, mashing is all the same. The differences you are asking about are in regards to the sparge.

On the mash side, you are using a 'single infusion' - i.e. you are not stepping up the mash temperature (first 140, then 148, then 154, for example) if I understood your process correctly.

As for your sparging method, yup, that's not standard I'd be curious about the reusing of the first runnings, my first runnings are quite sweet, I wonder if you are pickng up any other sugars by doing that.

I'm not so sure about the folks who are saying you are fly sparging with your sink sprayer. It sounds to me like you're just filling it up with water from the sprayer, not timing the outflow to match the inflow. In which case, I would call it an unusual way to batch sparge.

In any case, you don't really care, because you don't need Beersmith to tell you numbers regarding sparging - you do what I do, sparge until you have the right pre-boil volume.

i have never heard of someone recirculating first runnings like that. have you shown an increase in efficiency doing that?

from beersmith's perspective, you can't really do anything with the way you sparge unless you can measure volume

Thanks for the feedback, so I'm totally screwed up in my process, that's good to know

Question is, is my process costing me A) Time B) Money C) Efficiency (aka money)?

Basically, do you think changing things up will help me reach 80% efficiency or perhaps I can use less grain or save a lot of time? A lot of people say that if the current system is working for you, don't change it but maybe I think it is and it really isn't working for me so I'd appreciate some input on that.

Thanks guys!

progmac said:

i have never heard of someone recirculating first runnings like that. have you shown an increase in efficiency doing that?

from beersmith's perspective, you can't really do anything with the way you sparge unless you can measure volume

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I've always done it that way so I have no idea if not doing it hurts efficiency.

Wow, that's a lot of work & time spent brewing for only 65 - 70% efficiency... My typical brewday is 3 hours (5 gallon) including cleanup and I consistantley hit 80 - 85%, BIAB.

Your first runnings should typically be saturated with sugars so running that back through the mash tun should only be costing you time for no gain. Your excess sugars should be extracted with a sparge step. By adding water and just letting it flow through the grains you may not be getting all the sugars out that you can. Try doing this as a batch sparge, keeping the tap on the tun closed as you add water and stir, then drain it. Try two batches, one with a single sparge step and one with sparge-drain-sparge again-drain to get your volume. That second sparge will get more of the sugars but it might not be worth the time it takes over just a single sparge step. Hotter water will hold more sugars but tests done by one of the contributors here have shown that it doesn't matter a great deal.

Just to clarify my 'non-traditional fly sparge' opinion: It sounds like you turn on your sink faucet spray head with the spigot on your MLT open, thus rinsing the sugar from the grains in the process. From your description, it sounds like you leave the grainbed intact during this process. Once you reach your volume you close your MLT spigot. This process in essentially (careless) fly sparging, but 'non-traditional fly sparging' sounds nicer.

Your recirculation of the first running through the MLT three times is ~~kind-of~~ batch sparging but since you're not actually collecting more volume during the process, I tend to think if it more of just rinsing. Either way you dice it, I do not believe this 3x circulation to be very effective or necessary, and is costing you time in your process.

If you are aiming for 80% efficiency then you will need to adjust your system specifically to maximize your efficiency. There are lots of ways to do this. A couple suggestions I would have to your current process that should be easy to implement and stray far from what you are currently doing are:
1) Stop the 3x rinsing of your grains using first runnings. Drain your first runnings and leave them in the BK.
2) Implement a more careful and slow fly sparge where you're keeping the level of water above the grainbed about 1 inch; slow and steady gets better rinsing and, thus, more sugar (i.e. higher efficiency). It will likely take 40-60 minutes to reach your preboil volume when fly sparging, so holding your sink faucet sprayer might not be the best option. Too fast and you risk sticking your sparge, or channeling (channeling leads to reduced efficiency).

That's where I would start for a couple batches. Find out where your efficiency lands after these couple changes. If you're not where you want to be then keep the same process and simply look at a slightly tighter crush of your grain (or double-milled). I believe you'll find yourself in the high 70s in no time.

Then again, high efficiency doesn't matter if you don't have consistent efficiency

i would think you could get similar efficiency by doing a very thin mash with no sparge whatsoever.

I don't care about efficiency beyond it being consistently predictable from batch to batch. Higher efficiency does not lead to better quality beer. Commercial breweries care about efficiency because of economics. For homebrewers, a pound of grain one way or another doesn't matter as much.

definitely wasting time with a 2-3 hour mash everytime. except for very low (sub 150) mash temps - most conversion will happen in even less than 60min

do you have your own grain mill or run it through at the LHBS twice? crush is usually the biggest factor in your efficiency

for comparison sake i'd try not putting your 1st runnings back through the mash tun and try sparging with water that is hotter than 140-150°

Remember to only change one variable at a time so you can quantify the effects of each change!

Heating the first runnings up to 170 and recirculating into the MT will not help you get more sugars out of the grain (as others have said), but it is serving as your mash out to denature all of the enzymes (which will prevent further enzymatic activity that could change the mix of fermentable and non-fermentable sugars). You could just as easily get the same effect by adding boiling water to get the whole mash up to 168 degrees before running off.

I agree with the comment by stpug that you can improve your efficiency by slowing down the sparge. My fly sparge pretty much always takes more than 30 minutes. Also, it is best to get the sparge water as close to 170 degrees as possible.

EDIT: But if you want to know what type of mash you are doing for Beersmith, it would set it at Single Infusion, Full Body.

My opinion:

1. Mashing for 2-3 hours is a waste of time. 90 minutes tops.
2. Recirculating first runnings 3 times is a waste of time.

Mash for 60 minutes, collect first runnings, sparge with 170 degree water to make your preboil volume.

Man your brewday must be like 9 hours or something.

Thanks everyone. I'll attempt this on Sunday's batch. I appreciate the help and yeah, it's taking a long time but mashing, I just walk away for a while. I usually brew after work so it's 5PM to roughly 2AM if I brew inside...outside I'm done by 11PM since the bayou burner is faster than my gas stove.

adamjackson said:

Thanks everyone. I'll attempt this on Sunday's batch. I appreciate the help and yeah, it's taking a long time but mashing, I just walk away for a while. I usually brew after work so it's 5PM to roughly 2AM if I brew inside...outside I'm done by 11PM since the bayou burner is faster than my gas stove.

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That's one of the reasons I BIAB. Even without an immersion chiller I'm usually done in 3 1/2 hours including cleanup and everything put away with a 2 1/2 galllon batch. A 5 gallon takes me an extra 15 minutes to heat the water and chill the wort.

adamjackson said:

Thanks for the feedback, so I'm totally screwed up in my process, that's good to know

Question is, is my process costing me A) Time B) Money C) Efficiency (aka money)?

Basically, do you think changing things up will help me reach 80% efficiency or perhaps I can use less grain or save a lot of time? A lot of people say that if the current system is working for you, don't change it but maybe I think it is and it really isn't working for me so I'd appreciate some input on that.

Thanks guys!

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Others have already answered, but yes I think your process IS costing you time, money, and efficiency.

Here's why:
1. Time. The mash was probably converted in 20-40 minutes, but holding it for 60 ensures it. While it sits for 3 hours, you actually start to lose the profile of the wort, causing a thinner drier beer in the end. I'd mash for no more than 60 minutes, but if you want to use iodine to check for conversion you could mash for a much shorter time if you want. 60 minutes is generally the maximum amount of time needed unless you're using a lot of adjuncts.
2. Money- by taking sugar-rich wort and running it back through the grainbed you very well may be putting the sugar back into the mash and having it stick back on the grain! Once you drain the wort, rinse with water (only) because the principles of diffusion apply- the water will help "pull" the sugars out of the grain. Or use more water in the mash and go no-sparge. You'll lose some efficiency there, but get a nice quality wort if you don't care about money (a few more pounds of grain).
3. Efficiency- well, if your total efficiency numbers are where you'd like then you have no worries.

If this was me, I'd change it up. I'd mash for 60 minutes with 1.5 quarts of water per pound of grain. Stir well, and after the 60 minutes I'd vorlauf and drain. Dump in some sparge water, stir like you mean it, vorlauf and drain. Start the boil. That right there would save hours of your time- aside from heating the water at the start, you'd do all that in about 75 minutes total. You'd probably get near 80% efficiency if your crush was good.

Yooper said:

Others have already answered, but yes I think your process IS costing you time, money, and efficiency.

Here's why:
1. Time. The mash was probably converted in 20-40 minutes, but holding it for 60 ensures it. While it sits for 3 hours, you actually start to lose the profile of the wort, causing a thinner drier beer in the end. I'd mash for no more than 60 minutes, but if you want to use iodine to check for conversion you could mash for a much shorter time if you want. 60 minutes is generally the maximum amount of time needed unless you're using a lot of adjuncts.
2. Money- by taking sugar-rich wort and running it back through the grainbed you very well may be putting the sugar back into the mash and having it stick back on the grain! Once you drain the wort, rinse with water (only) because the principles of diffusion apply- the water will help "pull" the sugars out of the grain. Or use more water in the mash and go no-sparge. You'll lose some efficiency there, but get a nice quality wort if you don't care about money (a few more pounds of grain).
3. Efficiency- well, if your total efficiency numbers are where you'd like then you have no worries.

If this was me, I'd change it up. I'd mash for 60 minutes with 1.5 quarts of water per pound of grain. Stir well, and after the 60 minutes I'd vorlauf and drain. Dump in some sparge water, stir like you mean it, vorlauf and drain. Start the boil. That right there would save hours of your time- aside from heating the water at the start, you'd do all that in about 75 minutes total. You'd probably get near 80% efficiency if your crush was good.

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Great simply next brew day advice. I'll follow this to the T. Thank you.

Others have had some greate advice as well so I'll keep tweaking with their input. Thanks again!

I think others have given you great advice. I'll also mention that in many older buildings (not sure what type of house/apt you live in) it can be quite dangerous to consume the hot tap water. I definitely wouldn't want to use hot tap water to rinse my grain. You can end up with lead and other heavy metals, it's much safer to use cold tap water and heat it on the stove. Unless you have brand new plumbing.

adamjackson said:

Thanks for the feedback, so I'm totally screwed up in my process, that's good to know

Question is, is my process costing me A) Time B) Money C) Efficiency (aka money)?

Basically, do you think changing things up will help me reach 80% efficiency or perhaps I can use less grain or save a lot of time? A lot of people say that if the current system is working for you, don't change it but maybe I think it is and it really isn't working for me so I'd appreciate some input on that.

Thanks guys!

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Lots of time for no appreciable benefit. Pouring the entire volume of wort back through the mash multiple times is gaining you nothing. I use a standard single infusion, single batch sparge and average 83-85% efficiency. Take a look at www.dennybrew.com

zachattack said:

I'll also mention that in many older buildings (not sure what type of house/apt you live in) it can be quite dangerous to consume the hot tap water. ...You can end up with lead and other heavy metals, it's much safer to use cold tap water and heat it on the stove. Unless you have brand new plumbing.

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The CDC agrees that water for cooking should come from the cold tap. It seems like a paradox, but new houses are at more risk for lead leaching from solder. They argue that in older homes the solder has leached out what it is going to. Houses built after 2014 must have much less lead available in the water system.

Hmm no kidding. I just assumed anything more recent would have almost no lead.