2013 NHC first round results?

Got mine today from the Tulsa, OK region. 44 on my Kolsch and 1st in mini BOS! Time to brew me thinks. Cover sheets say results will be posted "no later than May 3rd"

Excellent. I'm waiting for Tulsa myself. I'll check the mail today.

I only entered 3 as I'm a cheap bastige and I only had 1 that I thought had a chance of moving on. The other two were merely feedback entries and to even out the shipping box. I suspect I won't see those moving on.

Nothing from Ohio. Mail just came today.

New York Judging Center

Before the competition:
Entries sent back on UPS truck because they're not prepared to accept the number of bottles arriving.

During the competition:
Poor organization to the point that some judges have to leave before the second session because judging is running so far behind schedule.

After the competition:
One week no scoresheets - OK be patient
Two weeks no scoresheets - Getting worried
Three weeks no scoresheets - Ridiculous

How can anything that comes from this center be taken seriously. How well were the entries handled and organized before the event. How could the judges be expected to do their best when it's obvious that they're working for a poorly run event. The level of incompetence makes everything done there come into question.

iBrewR said:

New York Judging Center

How can anything that comes from this center be taken seriously. How well were the entries handled and organized before the event. How could the judges be expected to do their best when it's obvious that they're working for a poorly run event. The level of incompetence makes everything done there come into question.

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I was there and judged. I'd guess that we had as many or more high-ranking judges as any other site-I personally judged with two national judges,hung out with a Master judge between sessions, and judged at a table with Gary Glass so I'm pretty confident you can trust the results as much as(or probably more than) the other sites.

True enough that things could have happened in a more timely manner but we basically did at one location, mostly in one day, what most of the other centers did over the course of several days, at several sites. The folks at Alewife were very generous in letting us use their site and it's a great bar but due to size limitations, etc not ideal for comps (but few places here are).

As to your comment about the "level of incompetence," I think the issues have less to do with "incompetence" and more to do with two things unique to NYC (as opposed to the other judging centers). First, space here is at a premium, much more so than any other place in the country. There are an awful lot of people here who live in glorified walk-in closets and the situation is no different for businesses. A business with limited space (read ALL businesses in the city) that VOLUNTEERS to accept a huge number of deliveries of homebrews, the delivery day of which it has no control, is absolutely justified in asking for those packages be redelivered another day if they've just received a load of product that they actually make money on (and thus can't accommodate the homebrew at that moment) or are too busy actually doing business to deal with a massive homebrew delivery at that moment.

The second thing unique to NYC (and a lot of people aren't going to like hearing this one but it IS true) is that, in general, most folks here are a lot busier than folks elsewhere. I was born and raised in TX, graduated from UT, have lived in and visited plenty of other cities and I can tell you that the average person in NYC has a lot more going on than the majority of folks other places. I know almost no one up here who has time to sit around and watch tv, etc. yet some of these same people have VOLUNTEERED to take on, in what little spare time they have, an enormous administrative task in processing all of the paperwork, score sheets, etc that goes along with the NHC.

Is three weeks a while to wait? Sure. And it's great that some folks were able to get their results back from other sites so quickly. However, I'd like to point out that we're still a full week away from the date that is clearly stated on the registration site as a deadline for results so, really, your complaints are utterly baseless.

I'd suggest that if you don't appreciate the hours and days and weeks and months of work that VOLUNTEERS put into this competition then don't enter.

Maybe NYC just shouldn't host if there are limiting factors such as space and time?

As mentioned, though, we are still well within the time limit.

Also, one thing we DO have here is an abundance of BJCP judges, I would guess more within a relatively small (geographically speaking) area than just about anywhere else.

Also, just wanted to mention that, while I am a BJCP judge and judge local comps I am not one of the organizers.

WilliamWS said:

The second thing unique to NYC (and a lot of people aren't going to like hearing this one but it IS true) is that, in general, most folks here are a lot busier than folks elsewhere.

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If you are hosting the worlds largest homebrew competition and charging $12-$17 per entry, you need to have your **** together. If you are too busy to host an a event with proper planning... don't host it. That is a pathetic excuse.

I found time in my busy Washington, D.C. day to register and ship my beers to the comp, only to have them refused delivery and sit god knows where for three days.

If you know that you are busier than most folks... and you don't plan accordingly for that, the failure is on the host.

When I mentioned the average person here having a fuller schedule than the average person elsewhere I was specifically addressing complaints about the VOLUNTEERS not getting results out weeks in advance of the stated deadline.

Again, I personally have nothing to do with the planning, organization, or administration of the comp but I DO find it silly, borderline offensive, the way that some folks on here talk about VOLUNTEERS who are DONATING their time.

WilliamWS said:

. . . your complaints are utterly baseless.

I'd suggest that if you don't appreciate the hours and days and weeks and months of work that VOLUNTEERS put into this competition then don't enter.

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You pretty much collaborate everything I said and then claim it’s baseless. I’d suggest that if you can’t handle a task in a timely and efficient manner, you shouldn’t VOLUNTEER. A time limit is just that, a limit. For one of the first centers to judge to be one of the last the get out scoresheets does speak to competence. Subjecting contestant’s beer to extra, uncalled for time in a UPS truck and facility is inexcusable. Make all the justifications you’d like. Pat yourself on the back for your great pool of judges. None of it matter if you only provide the very minimum service that’s expected of you.


add:
You've made it perfectly clear that when it comes to the scoresheets, you're fine with a center doing the absolute minimum that's expected of them. What you fail to see is that it's a combination of things that creates the frustration. Not excepting deliveries. Judges leaving early because of poor organization. These things together put the whole competition in question. These are just the thing we've seen. What other problems were there?

While I think the 'refusing' of shipments sucks, and I would be quite mad if that were me, I don't think any center has done anything horribly wrong. The real problem is how/when each center is reporting. There should be continuity when everyone is effectively in the same competition as to not give anyone an unfair advantage. It also just looks bad when every center has their own set of rules they seem to be following.

I will say this, while I appreciate every center and volunteer, maybe NYC shouldn't be a region given the space constraints. There's certainly other places that could host in the NE. Philly was a first round host last year, but I guess they changed it this year because the NHC is here.

iBrewR said:

...None of it matter if you only provide the very minimum service that’s expected of you.

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That's just it!
To my knowledge, the NYC region has operated within all of the parameters set forth from the get-go. You can say, "Seattle did it faster," all you want but it doesn't mean that the NYC center has not fulfilled its stated obligations.

WilliamWS said:

You can say, "Seattle did it faster," all you want but it doesn't mean that the NYC center has not fulfilled its stated obligations.

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What are the stated obligations?

As far as I can tell the sites were cleared to mail scoresheets at the completion of judging. The only hard date was that the AHA said the 1st round winners would be announced by May 4th. Are you suggesting that the obligation is to get the scoresheets out before the winners are announced?

EllisTX said:

Got mine today from the Tulsa, OK region. 44 on my Kolsch and 1st in mini BOS! Time to brew me thinks. Cover sheets say results will be posted "no later than May 3rd"

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Congrats! Hope to see mine in the next day or two then (also Tulsa region).

iBrewR said:

You pretty much calibrate everything I said and then claim it’s baseless. I’d suggest that if you can’t handle a task in a timely and efficient manner, you shouldn’t VOLUNTEER. A time limit is just that, a limit. For one of the first centers to judge to be one of the last the get out scoresheets does speak to competence. Subjecting contestant’s beer to extra, uncalled for time in a UPS truck and facility is inexcusable. Make all the justifications you’d like. Pat yourself on the back for your great pool of judges. None of it matter if you only provide the very minimum service that’s expected of you.


add:
You've made it perfectly clear that when it comes to the scoresheets, you're fine with a center doing the absolute minimum that's expected of them. What you fail to see is that it's a combination of things that creates the frustration. Not excepting deliveries. Judges leaving early because of poor organization. These things together put the whole competition in question. These are just the thing we've seen. What other problems were there?

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Dude, it's just a homebrew comp. Take a deep breath.

I just heard back form Tulsa; I got a 38.5 for my Belma Saison, and I'm really stoked about it. The min-BOS box was unchecked, so it may not be going on, but I'll probably enter it in another local competition. I also sent in a version of the same beer that was bottle conditioned with tart cherry juice concentrate. It scored a 30.5. I'm actually pretty happy about that, too. It's not going anywhere, other than my belly.

The funny thing about the belma saison is that the judges said it had no hop aroma/flavor. I used a lot of belma late in the boil. I guess everyone's right, it just doesn't have much character on its own.

I got my scoresheets from San Diego today, so apparently the mail service won by a nose...or maybe a length or two depending on when results are finally posted online. My metheglin did as expected and got a 33, which is actually about 10 points better than the last time I submitted it to a competition as a traditional mead, before I spiced it in an attempt to make it more drinkable. My Oktoberfest advanced to mini-BOS and ended up getting Honorable Mention. So close, and yet so far away...

TNGabe said:

Dude, it's just a homebrew comp. Take a deep breath.

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To an extent I'd agree, but it could also be considered _the_ homebrew competition. It's a national competition put on by the only national homebrewing organization. According to what's been posted, the results (i.e. who placed) were not supposed to be published until all results were received, however the scoresheets were supposed to be sent in a timely manner. If space and time are at such a premium in New York, it seems there are any number of other nearby locations that could have been sought out.

TobyG said:

To an extent I'd agree, but it could also be considered _the_ homebrew competition. It's a national competition put on by the only national homebrewing organization. According to what's been posted, the results (i.e. who placed) were not supposed to be published until all results were received, however the scoresheets were supposed to be sent in a timely manner. If space and time are at such a premium in New York, it seems there are any number of other nearby locations that could have been sought out.

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People paid to participate in this. They paid to enter, paid for membership, paid to ship beers, paid to attend. Not to mention the copious corporate sponsorships. Someone is making money off this clearly. I have no dog in this fight. I didn't enter beers. You can enter cheaper competitions that have some pretty nice BOS prizes elsewhere.

If money changes hands for a competition, the customer (the brewer) has a right to have specific expectations. It's not a mom and pop garage sale after all. So yeah, what you said.

Beer.

highgravitybacon said:

people paid to participate in this. They paid to enter, paid for membership, paid to ship beers, paid to attend. Not to mention the copious corporate sponsorships. Someone is making money off this clearly. I have no dog in this fight. I didn't enter beers. You can enter cheaper competitions that have some pretty nice bos prizes elsewhere.

If money changes hands for a competition, the customer (the brewer) has a right to have specific expectations. It's not a mom and pop garage sale after all. So yeah, what you said.

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+1!!!

highgravitybacon said:

People paid to participate in this. They paid to enter, paid for membership, paid to ship beers, paid to attend. Not to mention the copious corporate sponsorships. Someone is making money off this clearly.

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of all the complaints made, this one rings hollowest. NO ONE is making money here.

get over yourselves.

sweetcell said:

of all the complaints made, this one rings hollowest. NO ONE is making money here.

get over yourselves.

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I did some quick math. There were 11 judging sites and each one was full with 750 entries. That's 8250 entries at 12 dollars an entry. The total dollar amount from entry fees than is at least 99K, probably more since non AHA members pay more. Let's call it an even 100K. But wait there are also corporate sponsorships for each category. I don't know how much but let's say it is 1K for each category(23). So now the NHC has raised 123K to put on a homebrew competition that is run entirely by VOLUNTEERS. Now I know there are some expenses ( postage, medals, room rentals, office supplies, etc..) but certainly NOT 123K worth. It just seems like we aren't getting what we are paying for.....

I'm impatient and really don't understand why it has taken almost a week, and counting, to post the winners but lets not overreact here. I hate to say it but give them so more time before overreacting. I will say that with the high entry fees my expectation was that results would be up within a few days like every other competition I have entered. The ongoing delay is not acceptable for any competition and I hope they address this going forward.

Darwin18 said:

I'm impatient and really don't understand why it has taken almost a week, and counting, to post the winners but lets not overreact here. I hate to say it but give them so more time before overreacting. I will say that with the high entry fees my expectation was that results would be up within a few days like every other competition I have entered. The ongoing delay is not acceptable for any competition and I hope they address this going forward.

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How is it a delay if we're still a week out from when results are promised?

Read their website. It says results cannot be posted until all judging centers are done and submitted, and states a day that will be posted by. Since judging was finished last week, they've had several days to post the winners. Every other competition I've entered has them up in 48 hours with the longest wait being 5 days.

Darwin18 said:

Read their website. It says results cannot be posted until all judging centers are done and submitted, and states a day that will be posted by. Since judging was finished last week, they've had several days to post the winners. Every other competition I've entered has them up in 48 hours with the longest wait being 5 days.

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How many of those had 8000 entries spread across 11 judging sites?

Just be clear I'm just referring to the winners not individual scores or score sheets.

TNGabe said:

How many of those had 8000 entries spread across 11 judging sites?

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Oh come on. It's a cover sheet that the competition organizer sends in to the AHA that they upload to their website. The software is supposed to do all the heavy lifting. I'm not talking about the individual scores or sheets, but the winners for each category.

I guess the one thing I don't understand out of all of it is this -

*On the one hand, apparently (from an earlier post) Centers were instructed that they could send out score sheets as soon as they were able.

*Score sheets were to include place - if awarded.

*Sooooooooooo...... why not allow folks to log in and actually see their score/place on the log-in site the day after the competition. This would obviously be easy to do - as Comps. like Midwinter, Upper Miss. Mashout, KC biermeisters, Drunk monk..... etc. etc. (with 400-1000 entries) do it when they host.

I sort of get the fact that maybe they want to release final results all at once....... that is fine. But, if they gave the go-ahead to send scoresheets at different times, what possible reason could there be to not post the score/place on the log in site????? None. That would allow everyone instant access to their own personal results, and then they could still unveil all the final results at once. There is absolutely zero reason not to be able to do that, as far as I a can figure- literally, dozens of comps already do it with the exact same software, and likely - the same folks running the regionals as the big comps.

It seems like AHA is trying to follow the age-old strategy of "underpromise-over deliver." This is generally a good way to go about things. But, in this day and age of technology, I agree that it seems odd that it would take weeks to list scores and winners. If it takes a bit longer to mail out ribbons, scoresheets, certificates......I get that. But, scores/places........I don't get why that could not be done instantly, or within hours of the last competitions........ it is done all the time with comps. as big, or bigger than these regionals.

Darwin18 said:

Oh come on. It's a cover sheet that the competition organizer sends in to the AHA that they upload to their website. The software is supposed to do all the heavy lifting. I'm not talking about the individual scores or sheets, but the winners for each category.

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May 4th is only a week away.

I still haven't often my scores from Atlanta

And williamWS, get over yourself. Everyone has full time jobs (or multiple) and family/chores to tend to. To say people in NY are more busy is just a narrow minded statement. Unless the days are less than 24 hours there, your logic is flawed.

Anybody received anything from the Pleasanton judging site in Northern California?

TNGabe said:

May 4th is only a week away.

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True. It's also another week closer to the shipping deadline for round 2. At this point, I'm pretty certain that I'm past the point to rebrew the two lagers I sent in and getting close for my fruit beer. Now you might say, well you should have re-brewed anyway and I get that but I also don't want to tie up my fermentation chamber for several weeks unnecessarily (not to mention my time and money for ingredients, brew day, etc.) when all the AHA has to do is list the winners for each region. Braufessor summed up my thoughts much more succinctly that I was able to do.

sweetcell said:

of all the complaints made, this one rings hollowest. NO ONE is making money here.

get over yourselves.

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You should go back and actually read the context. Did you just stop at the sentence where you got mad and hit Reply? Looks like it.

Darwin18 said:

True. It's also another week closer to the shipping deadline for round 2. At this point, I'm pretty certain that I'm past the point to rebrew the two lagers I sent in and getting close for my fruit beer. Now you might say, well you should have re-brewed anyway and I get that but I also don't want to tie up my fermentation chamber for several weeks unnecessarily (not to mention my time and money for ingredients, brew day, etc.) when all the AHA has to do is list the winners for each region. Braufessor summed up my thoughts much more succinctly that I was able to do.

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This is my reasoning as well. In fact some bits from the "official" email quoted earlier really bothers me:

Please do these things:
Write 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place as appropriate on the cover sheets of the winning entries, and send all score sheets to the entrants ASAP following the competition.
Verbally announce the winners after the conclusion of the competition.

Please do NOT do these things:
Make hard copies of the competition results available.
Post the competition results on a website.
Email or electronically make available the results from the competition.

There is a perception of fairness, or the lack thereof, when we post competition results before all of the competitions have finished judging. Thanks.

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Is the goal to avoid the perception of lack of fairness, or to actually make things fair to all competitors?

If the goal is to actually make things fair, then everyone should be getting their results at the same time, regardless of how that information is received. The people who run the competition are always going to have a competitive advantage (they will always know immediately), but folks should not be getting their scoresheets back with places marked nearly a month before other folks get the same information. This is exactly the kind of thing the SEC attempts to control with insider trading rules because it is a huge competitive advantage.

I'm not saying people who use their scoresheets should go to jail, but the rules should actually be set up to be more fair for all entrants. At the very least, don't mark the place on the coversheets sent to brewers, and even better would be for results (along with everyone's scoresheets) to be posted online at the same time. There is already a registration system and database for every single entrant, so this is not some huge technical or logistical hurdle by any means. All you need is a sheet-fed scanner and a little bit of scripting. It's what we did for our competition last year, only instead of posting to a website we emailed everyone's scoresheets out at once.


It's not like my entry is moving on anyway, but I am bothered by the fact that things are set up to provide a competitive advantage to (most) folks who enter the first round regions which are judged sooner.

weirdboy said:

It's not like my entry is moving on anyway, but I am bothered by the fact that things are set up to provide a competitive advantage to (most) folks who enter the first round regions which are judged sooner.

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On a completely unrelated note I am brewing an APA today that had a "2" marked in the place box on the cover sheet

I still haven't gotten my score sheets back, what gives?

Coff said:

I still haven't gotten my score sheets back, what gives?

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New Yorkers are much busier than you.

If you didn't submit your beers to New York than I have no idea.