Question about cops and for those who live in Association communities

Hi guys,
I live in Irvine, CA (Orange County) and for those who dont know where or what this place is then please allow me to explain. I believe for the past 6 or 7 years (except last year) Irvine has received the safest city to live in the United States. The local authorities and powers that be plan to keep it this way because this city was a "master planned" community. Its made up of upper/ upper middle class residents who are at times very culturally challenged. The city is broken down into Association communities which essentially allow a form of communism to thrive here. For those who live in planned communities and association type living situations nothing compares to the dictatorship of Irvine agendas.

I recently had a neighbor call the police about a week ago when I was homebrewing. The officer was pretty polite and he asked me questions about open flame, legalities, and neighbor concerns. He was one of the cops that was not familiar with California home brew laws allowing people to brew from their home. In a nut shell he stated that if neighbors keep complaining he was going to have to shut us down. (I laughed a little) Do you guys who live in California know where I can access formal documents online where I can print these out and show the local police if the decide to visit me again? I am not talking about a website stating that its ok to brew, but actual hard documents that I can print out?


Ok so onto my next question...I recently received a notice from my Association (that included a pic of my single tier brewing setup) that stated I cannot have "open flames" in the garage and please stop immediately. My brewstand is always setup where the garage door opens and is halfway outside my garage but also partially inside my garage. I have replied to their letter and told them thank you for the friendly reminder of having open flames in the garage. I plan on brewing this Friday and I have verified with my neighbors that the small driveway that is in between my garage door and community tarmac is my property. Since there are no open flames allowed in my garage do you guys think they could do anything legally if I brew totally outside my garage on my part of the driveway right in front of my garage?

Would love to hear some feedback and opinions...

Talk to a lawyer. I think there may be lawyers that know a little more about HB laws. Could get you the paperwork needed. Sounds like a bunch of whiney HOA people. Have nothing better to do but find tgings to complain about. Good luck.

reading your post has got my blood boiling. I wish I could help with finding the legalities and actual documents. What is wrong with everyone these days? If your neighbors want to know what you're up to, why don't they come over and ask you?! why do they need to call the police because they don't know what you're doing? has the US really become a place where you call someone with guns and handcuffs every time you are ignorant of a given situation? People with money demanding control of the rest of the population because they are so worried someone may think differently.
A message for your old retired folks. When the people that have to work everyday are trying to enjoy themselves, just remember that you are living off of the social security that we are paying, from which we will not see a dime when we reach your age and have to work until we are 72 to retire efficiently. so keep your nose out of our business! Americans, leave your fellow country-men alone unless they are victimizing innocents. Let others be free to choose for themselves!!
sorry for ranting on your post man, but I have been dealing with bitching neighbors for a while myself.

I live in one of those culled-sac new neighborhoods with a home owner's association. I hate these don't care about you people. I swear this place is full of high brow back stabbing for one-upsmanship sake weekend biker wannabees. You know,the quaker steak-n-lube biker night gang. Some think they're died in the wool bad a$$e$. Then stand back with a sheepish grin while the wife talks smack. I could tell stories about that one guy's wife if i was that sort...
I was sitting in the man cave with the door open one hot summer day sanitizing bottles onto my bottle tree when a neighbor jogged by,looked in at what I was doing,& smiled. I thought ok,that's cool I guess. Then some days later,another neighbor's standing outside the front of my house on a cell phone saying to someone "yeah,it looks like a meth lab or something!".how the hell does this yuppy scum know about something you might see in East Cleveland?! The a couple months later,the cops come over with some trumped up lies about my son to reconoiter the premises. I have to remind them of state & federal laws at that point. Never heard another friggin word from anybody. I say look up state & federal laws. The AHA site is a good place to start,as they have a section on this.
Oh,& buy the way,I'm retired & if you wanna split hairs,I paid into MY SS account long before you were born. You aren't paying mine. Technically,you're paying into your own. But the government has found ways to take OUR money to buy bombs & such before,or to fix money woes.

plus, you are not using "open flames" its a burner for christsake. not like its a stack of firewood in the front lawn with a cauldron over it. that kind of community sounds like hell to me. can't even enjoy the beauty of your own home/property because everyone is so uptight and scared of each other.

Can people have a propane grill?

I don't think it's so much being scared,but bored rich folks looking to make themselves look better & run around doing whatever they want while the attention's focused on you. I've gotten that in this town many times. Around here,a bon fire,lets say,has to be 50' from the house,trees,etc to be legal. And you have to have the fire dept ok it first. But I guess that's cool,gotta be safe. But a propane burner? how about their high dollar propane bbq's?! They also have open side burners. I'd bring that up if they wanted to get testy with my propane boil set up.

Good luck finding the laws on that. Hope you shove it down their throats.

In the meantime, can you wheel your brewstand around the house? Brew on the back patio?

I very much dislike HOAs, you have the privilege of paying someone to tell you what you can't do on your own property. You didn't mention if you live in a house or townhouse or condo.

Someone is making life difficult for you, find out who it is. Ask them politely to mind their own business. Read the HOA bylaws and either get around them, or attend the next HOA metting and raise hell.

Whatever you do, don't give the cops another reason to come back. Go electric or brew in the backyard away from prying eyes. People can't report what they can't see, if cops can't see it they can't cite you for it. Home brewing is legal, but there are too many stupid things that cops can cite you or even arrest you for, avoid it at all costs.

Spentgrains is not a lawyer, this is not legal advice.

Looking on the AHA site will show some of them. Goto this link first; http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/pages/government-affairs/statutes Read the column,then input your state in the box at the top. It'll give statute title,chapter etc then the body of the law. you could likely take it from there to look up further statutes that go with it by state. It is public information,after all.
I started searching Ohio at this link for what's listed on the AHA site; http://codes.ohio.gov/oac/4301%3A1-1 43011-1-02 Definitions only mentions "Home Use" under def # (5) as buying alcohol for home use without any sort of charge. Brewers wort & Malt tax from 1964 to 1989 was repealed,so no wording left there. 4399-no unlawful sales or gifts,but it is,in the wording,referring to leasees/tenents,ie renters.Holy Shnikies! heres a wild one 4399.15-Adulterated spiritous liquor,alcoholic liquor,or beer-No person,for the purpose of sale,shall adulterate spiritous liquor,alcoholic liquor,or beer used or intended for drink or medicinal or mechanical purposes,with cocculos indicus,vitriol,grains of paradise,opium,alum,capsicum,copperas,laurel water,logwood,brazilwood,cochineal,sugar of lead,aloes,gluecose,tannic acid,or any other substance that is pouisonous or injurious to health.,or with a substance not a necessary ingredient in the manufacture of the spiritous liquor,alcoholic liquor,or beer,or sell,offer,or keep for sale,spiritous liquor,alcoholic liquor,or beer that is so adulterated.
In addition to the penalties provided in division (E) of section 4399.99 of the revised code,a person convicted of violating shall pay all necessary costs & expenses inccured in inspecting & analyzing spiritous liquor,alcoholic liquor,or beer that is so adulterated,sold,kept,or offered for sale. Effective date: 10-11-2002. Talk about "ANAL-yzing! So it basically says nothing about being able to brew at home wine or beer,just that you need all kinds of licensing,etc to make & sell it. But it also doesn'r specifically say you can't either. But laws like the one above they could probably also hit you with if they felt like it. So look this stuff up!

GenIke said:

Can people have a propane grill?

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yes..thats exactly what i told the cop..what an idiot

SpentGrains said:

I very much dislike HOAs, you have the privilege of paying someone to tell you what you can't do on your own property. You didn't mention if you live in a house or townhouse or condo.

Someone is making life difficult for you, find out who it is. Ask them politely to mind their own business. Read the HOA bylaws and either get around them, or attend the next HOA metting and raise hell.

Whatever you do, don't give the cops another reason to come back. Go electric or brew in the backyard away from prying eyes. People can't report what they can't see, if cops can't see it they can't cite you for it. Home brewing is legal, but there are too many stupid things that cops can cite you or even arrest you for, avoid it at all costs.

Spentgrains is not a lawyer, this is not legal advice.

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I live in a condo with two patios..buuuut I recently remodeled my entire garage (including electrical) to a mini brew house.. I was brewing on my patio for a while but decided to remodel the garage for brewing purposes. the problem with going back to the patio is that all my hoses, supplies, ect are in the garage now, neatly organized.

GarageDweller said:

plus, you are not using "open flames" its a burner for christsake. not like its a stack of firewood in the front lawn with a cauldron over it. that kind of community sounds like hell to me. can't even enjoy the beauty of your own home/property because everyone is so uptight and scared of each other.

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you took the words out of my mouth..

ICWiener said:

Good luck finding the laws on that. Hope you shove it down their throats.

In the meantime, can you wheel your brewstand around the house? Brew on the back patio?

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Its something I thought of, but remodeled our garage into a brew house..everything is so accessible in the garage..

dubprocess said:

yes..thats exactly what i told the cop..what an idiot

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You can never win an argument with the police, don't even bother.

dubprocess said:

Its something I thought of, but remodeled our garage into a brew house..everything is so accessible in the garage..

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Keep garage door halfway closed with a fan blowing in? With a carbon monoxide detector? Any windows in the garage?

Just be safe man.

SpentGrains said:

Keep garage door halfway closed with a fan blowing in? With a carbon monoxide detector? Any windows in the garage?

Just be safe man.

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We have thought about this. We will be trying to brew "in front" of our garage door tomorrow evening..If they still complain we will have to go undercover in the garage. I can open the side door and slightly open the main garage door to allow air flow... Bought a fire extinguisher as well..

dubprocess said:

In a nut shell he stated that if neighbors keep complaining he was going to have to shut us down. (I laughed a little)

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That's really all it takes huh? My neighbors do some perfectly legal things that I would like shut down, like sunbathing in their back yard (not the kind you want to peek over and see).

I guess the benefit of Colorado is most everyone loves beer...and doing illegal things until they become legal !

GenIke said:

Can people have a propane grill?

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Probably not in the garage, although the flame is completely contained. I read somewhere (probably here) that running a propane burner in your garage probably violates fire codes and quite likely your homeowner policy.

I'm not going to stop brewing in my garage, but that argument may not work with local authorities.

There isn't really one document for you to provide which will cover all of the nuances of you brewing in your garage. You can show the state statute that allows for homebrewing to start.

http://law.onecle.com/california/business/23356.2.html

But as far as "open flame" and doing that in your garage, you should contact your local fire department. From what I understand, some of the regulations are left up to local agencies to adopt or not. So, there may be an issue with you using a propane burner in your garage. See for reference: http://www.ocfa.org/_uploads/pdf/se_Info Bulletin BBQ on balcony.pdf

Finally, you really need to read your HOA rules/bylaws/regulations carefully to see there is anything there to prevent you from brewing in your garage,etc. Chances are the language will be vague enough for the HOA Board to try to apply it to your situation. And I agree with another poster that you should go to an HOA meeting to voice your concerns and/or seek guidance.

ColoHox said:

That's really all it takes huh? My neighbors do some perfectly legal things that I would like shut down, like sunbathing in their back yard (not the kind you want to peek over and see).

I guess the benefit of Colorado is most everyone loves beer...and doing illegal things until they become legal !

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Believe me..California has many people into craftbeer..more than any place in the country based on the fact that we simply have the highest population in the US...Its just the area where I live is sucking lately.

California ranks first in most craft breweries..haha
http://www.usatoday.com/story/trave...10-best-craft-brew-states-in-america/2098517/

Man another reason I love living out in the country. Yes it is a chore to drive into town to buy stuff but the ability to shoot off my back porch and brew whenever I want is well worth it.

Varmintman said:

Man another reason I love living out in the country. Yes it is a chore to drive into town to buy stuff but the ability to shoot off my back porch and brew whenever I want is well worth it.

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Yeah I know man.. We were just talking about moving to Oregon the other day and starting a farm..

ryno84 said:

There isn't really one document for you to provide which will cover all of the nuances of you brewing in your garage. You can show the state statute that allows for homebrewing to start.

http://law.onecle.com/california/business/23356.2.html

But as far as "open flame" and doing that in your garage, you should contact your local fire department. From what I understand, some of the regulations are left up to local agencies to adopt or not. So, there may be an issue with you using a propane burner in your garage. See for reference: http://www.ocfa.org/_uploads/pdf/se_Info Bulletin BBQ on balcony.pdf

Finally, you really need to read your HOA rules/bylaws/regulations carefully to see there is anything there to prevent you from brewing in your garage,etc. Chances are the language will be vague enough for the HOA Board to try to apply it to your situation. And I agree with another poster that you should go to an HOA meeting to voice your concerns and/or seek guidance.

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This is exactly what I was looking for..thank you very much..

I despise H.O.A communities. There feeling of "self entitlment" pisses me off. If they spent as much time complaining, on other things. World would be a bit better. Aaahhhh.

ColoHox said:

That's really all it takes huh? My neighbors do some perfectly legal things that I would like shut down, like sunbathing in their back yard (not the kind you want to peek over and see).

I guess the benefit of Colorado is most everyone loves beer...and doing illegal things until they become legal !

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Where at in Colorado?

dubprocess said:

Believe me..California has many people into craftbeer..more than any place in the country based on the fact that we simply have the highest population in the US...Its just the area where I live is sucking lately.

California ranks first in most craft breweries..haha
http://www.usatoday.com/story/trave...10-best-craft-brew-states-in-america/2098517/

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Ya ya, I think it is a square mileage thing. I need to find the breweries/sq mi. stats. I think Colorado (Fort Collins, for 25518) is generally more laid back than CA. Your current location sounds terrible. It looks like you have a few good resources from this thread...once the cops are clued in, maybe they will just stop responding to all the calls.

Progressivism at it's best. Wouldn't you love to find out who bitched and leave a big coil of yesterday's food in their driveway some evening? Beavis would....

Problem I see is nosy neighbor syndrome going on. First off how do the nosy neighbors KNOW what a meth lab looks like. I have no clue what one looks like so unless they have dealing with a meth lab who are they to say what one looks like. I say keep your nose in your own business and out of others

I hate neighbors full on unless they are a mile away. I like to live my life the way I see fit not the way others want me to live.

I have had the very same argument ith my HOA (no police) and countless similar issues with my HOA and neighbors here in Huntington Beach. I can't stand HOAs one bit. I've found that a good lawyer well versed in HOA by laws and your rights works wonders for dealing with them. In general, my property manager changes his tune righ away once I mention my lawyer. I won the argument with the comparison to a gas grill, but it wasn't easy.

I also went as far as to have a BBQ in a common area and welcome any neighbor who came by and passed out some homebrew to those interested. A little bribery goes a long way...

However with that said, I'm home shopping. I will not purchase a new home with an HOA. If it is not feasible to move in the near future I will likely go electric in the garage. No open flames there and nothing for anybody to complain about. Better yet i can close the garage door to the nosey neighbors. The HOA is reason #1 and inconsiderate neighbors are #2 for my hatred of an otherwise beautiful property. As much as I want to keep it as an investment, I just can't wait to sell it and walk away from this situation.

Emigrate to a free state and leave the People's Republic of Kalifornia.

Being In law enforcement and in CA there is absolutely nothing the officer can do to "Shut it down." That it a civil rights violation waiting to happen. Police Officers can only enforce the penal code not a HOA bylaw. If the officer was trying to say it is a violation of 415pc he is sadly mistaken and you would have a lawsuit if they made any attempt to stop you. 415 says it must be loud and unreasonable noise. Brewing is pretty quiet, at least all mine is. I would suggest calling the department and talking to a supervisor level position and see what rights you have. Ask what city ordinance, if any, may be violated also without being rude ask if there was any reason, legally, that you would have to stop and then research that law,(or post it here and I will) if they can even give you one. The only issue is if there is a city ordinance you may be violating.

With calling just remember that people don't like being called out. Be polite and ambiguous and you will get more solid answers. Keep the name of the supervisor you talked to on hand so if an officer responds you can say "Sir, XXX told me that this was the only issues I had to consider... And here is how I did that."

As for HOA I would say be careful they have a way of suing people and all sorts of shady things to get you to comply. The issue is you signed an agreement that you would follow all by laws when you moved in. That is where you may run into problems.

Just remember that most officers don't know the laws about homebrewing and would rather be dealing with real crime than trying to appease a whiny HOA. Like parties he was probably hoping you would not call his bluff and stop brewing so he didn't have to waste time responding back out there for a trivial complaint. Again though remember the penal code is huge and if you rudely push your agenda against an officer that is vindictive they may find a creative way to get you to stop. Not that I would but every officer is different. I know that last line will elicit a huge uprising of f the police and other ignorant comments but it is more a comment on human nature than police, for the same reason you want to be right and brew, they want to be right, and have a few more resources at their disposal.

Good luck hope you can defeat the HOA they seem to be the biggest hurdle you'll come up against.

Boy,you guys are quick today! Guess I took too long researching/typing post #10. It's not said to be illegal here in Ohio,for instance. but there is no specific provision for it either. You just have to be licensed,inspected,etc to make & sell it. 4399.09 even talks about not having a place where it's sold,furnished,or given away. The place can be abated as a nuisance,etc,etc. Makes me wonder if they can fall back on that kind of thing to,even though your not really creating a public nuisance? Boy,did I pick a great place to live,or what? Been wanting to move out of OH. Just need a place where they like hotrodders & home brewin!

You know, I'm a really liberal guy, and California is a beautiful state, but the laws are the only thing that have stopped me from even moving there. From gun control to nitpicky HOA arseholes to the MDV, just...nearly every law in that state drives me insane. I was in Vista Del Mar a few years back waiting to get picked up and I lit up a cigarette. I was nearly assaulted by a cop who thought I was just completely flouting their anti-smoking laws, when he found out I was from AZ I "got off" with a fine... Apparently you can't smoke outside there, even on your own property. My suggestions? Slog through the bureaucracy of your HOA and strike a blow for freedom-loving peoples or start lookin for a place that doesn't have an HOA/totalitarian governanace. If it were a true Communist Utopia everything would be held in common and you wouldn't have neighbors complaining about the new 3ft high fence enclosure their other neighbor put in that didn't pass DRC compliance. I work for a country club and have to deal with that brand of idiocy all the time, though I don't live in it so it's cool. Just gotta love living somewhere that denies you the right to paint your house the same color as it was before.

Preface: I've been developing communities, establishing HOA's, running them, enforcing deed restrictions and litigating violations since '84.

Deed restrictions are essentially a contract, and courts interpret them as such. If the deed restrictions say that you can't have an open flame in your garage (or something else that would make your brewing a violation of the restrictions), then you have entered into a contract agreeing not to brew in your garage. Laws rarely limit your right to enter into contracts, even if the provisions seem unfair. If the deed restrictions are against you, the law will rarely save you. Exceptions: many states have limited the validity of deed restrictions against displaying the flag, xeriscaping, putting up clotheslines or other energy efficient things et cetera. The deed restrictions can even say something like "no owner may engage in any activity on a Lot that poses a nuisance or an unsafe condition as determined in the sole and absolute discretion of the Board of Directors". Courts uphold this sort of thing, because you, as an owner, are deemed to have AGREED to the terms of the deed restrictions by virtue of your having taken title subject to those terms, of record. Doesn't even matter if you never saw them, the seller never told you and your lousy realtor hid them from you. The fact that they're recorded in the public records means that legally you had "constructive knowledge", i.e., in the eyes of the court, you knew. Bottom line is it's likely that if the Board wants to shut you down you're screwed. BUT, it's not a police matter. It's a civil matter.

cluckk said:

Emigrate to a free state and leave the People's Republic of Kalifornia.

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I wasn't gonna say it, because I was thinking it, but I knew someone was gonna....

ColoHox said:

Ya ya, I think it is a square mileage thing. I need to find the breweries/sq mi. stats. I think Colorado (Fort Collins, for 25518) is generally more laid back than CA. Your current location sounds terrible. It looks like you have a few good resources from this thread...once the cops are clued in, maybe they will just stop responding to all the calls.

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Nah, you have to go per capita. Bend, OR has a brewery for every 9,100 people.

2009 International Fire Code, Chapter 3: General Requirements, Section 308: Open Flames, subsection 308.1.4: Open flame cooking devices, page 35.

"Charcoal burners and other open-flame cooking devices shall not be operated on combustible balconies or within 10 feet (3048 mm) of combustible construction.

Exceptions:

1. One and two family dwellings.
2. Where buildings, balconies, and decks are protected by an automoatic sprinkler system.
3. LP-gas cooking devices having LP-gas container with a water capacity not greater than 2-1/2 pounds [nominal 1 pound (0.454 kg) lp-gas capacity]."

HOAs are the worst.

I live in suburbia, in CA, but no HOA...that's the key. I have a neighbor who's a CHP officer, he sees me brewing in my garage all the time and the only thing he'll ask me is if I got any stout on tap. I told my next door neighbors that I planted 15 foot tall hop vines all along the fence, they said cool, go for it.

You just have to steer clear of the masterplanned communities.

But there are also laws that go against contracts with blatently illegal wording,or those of questionable legality. It's just human nature not to go after them & enforce the flip side of the laws or statutes they put into their contracts. I really think they need to take a hard look at these HOA contracts to ensure more precise wording so as to prevent them from using grey areas to harrass those they may not agree with or even like.