First A.G.! Saison

SO my LHBS is probably going under and couldn't get any more stock, meaning: no extract. I decided that it was high time I do a full-blown a.g. since I have a lauter tun and a few big kettles and stop avoiding the inevitable. I've got all my schedule mapped out for doing it, anyone see any holes?

6.2# Belgian Pale malt
2# Rye Malt
1# Wheat malt
1# Oats (rolled, gonna cook em first to gelatinize)
1# cane sugar

2oz Saaz 3.2%aa 60 min
1oz Saaz 3.2%aa 30 min
1oz Saaz 3.2%aa 1 min (flameout)

WLP568 Belgian Style Saison ale yeast made into a big one gallon starter with 1lb of unknown dme, 1/2tsp yeast energizer, and 3/4tsp yeast nutrient. The tube of yeast is 7 days past it's "best by" date so I'm making a big starter to compensate.

-Mash in at target temp 152 (~164) with 3.3 gallons of water
-Stir every 10-20 mins and adjust temp if necessary
-Vorlauf after 1 hr (drain off ~1gal runnings and recycle them back in to clear
grains from line)
-Collect first runnings and set them on stove to start boil
-add sparge water, 5.3 gallons at 170, wait ten minutes and collect second runnings in kettle
-get to boiling temp and add hops to schedule, clean lauter tun while waiting, cool wort in ice bath, add starter and let er rip!

Recipe looks great but maybe a little light on the grain

I just did a 5gal batch of saison
8lbs pilsner
2 lbs Vienna
.5 flaked oats
.5 flaked corn

Did a 1.33 per lb of grain mash for an hour at 148-150 (I mash in a pot so temp control is not perfect) then a double batch sparge

1oz fuggle at 60
.5 hallertau at 15
.5 hallertau at 0
8 oz of honey at 0
(There's a spice packet in there too)

Yeast was danstar saison

My point is my og after boil was only 1.058

Not sure how the conversion factors on your grains are compared to mine as i am pretty new to this, but I feel you may have a pretty light beer in the works with only 6 pounds of base malt. Unless rye has a crapload more sugar in it than what I had to work with

It's still in primary but I am expecting a finish around 1.004-1.008

Edit: Though looking at it again. Your grain bill is about the same size. Also thinking a pound of sugar will be more than the 8 oz of honey....... I retract my former comment and will leave my recipe up
Just my .02

Yeah the grainbill and sugar comes out to 1.064 on hopville, assuming 75%efficiency. I can but probably won't throw another pound of oats in, probably just add more sugar or honey (we have a lot of abundant tasty local stuff). I hesitate because the oats don't have diastatic power and they're goopy. I'm afraid of a stuck sparge with the large quantity of grain that doesn't have husks. Not all saisions are killer strength, and one that's more in the 6-6.5% range is plenty acceptable to me. Also given how dry saisons go that's a pretty solid acl% range, I'm looking for balance, not something to get me plastered after I've had more than a few.

Some other plans I could go with would be to increase the sugar and caramelize it lightly to a blonde color (those who buy candi sugar are fools, not to start a fight)or add some caramelized honey that's been cooked to a nice mahogany hue. I've made a good amounts of bochet before and really love the taste. The only thing is I don't wanna overdo the sugar/honey because it'll lose body. I also plan on letting this one go open-fermented for 5-6 days at decently high temps to promote esters, then cap it after that and let it ride out. I'm thinking a clean, sanitized linen sheet or even just a layer of tinfoil over it? then put the lid on it and let it attenuate fully.

Agreed. All saisons don't have to be killers. I am looking forward to mine. My system is pretty efficient and I keep shooting for lighter beers and end up with monsters. (I've got a 7.2 kolsch in bottles right now). I'm pretty new to brewing as is so everything is still getting dialed in. Sounds like you want yours a bit heavier than mine but I don't blame you with not wanting even more oats. If you are looking for a little more gravity up the base malt. The rye and oats together will already make a stuck sparge a possibility. More hulls from more barley won't hurt. Or put .25 of rice hulls in to reduce the possibility of getting stuck even more

The open fermentation sounds like a great idea though. Should give it a nice flavor

For a Saison I'd mash at around 148.

lpdjshaw said:

For a Saison I'd mas at around 148.

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Agreed. And stretch the mash length past 60 minutes if it needs it.

any particular reason? I only ask because the mashing calculator I picked up from somewhere else on here says to mash at 152. My lauter tun (5-gallon water container) doesn't have a lid! didn't inherit one with it. So maybe it'll lose heat quicker? I'll be picking up some iodine for testing naturally, and I'm expecting a long brew day anyways (as compared to partial mash/extract) so longer mash? bring it on, I'm so excited.

A traditional Saison is actually a very low abv beer. It's only recently (and mainly in the USA) where it's become a big beer. Granted, that's how I like to brew mine but there's something to be said for being traditional.

RachmaelBenApplebaum said:

any particular reason? I only ask because the mashing calculator I picked up from somewhere else on here says to mash at 152. My lauter tun (5-gallon water container) doesn't have a lid! didn't inherit one with it. So maybe it'll lose heat quicker? I'll be picking up some iodine for testing naturally, and I'm expecting a long brew day anyways (as compared to partial mash/extract) so longer mash? bring it on, I'm so excited.

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The low mash temp helps dry out the beer by making a more fermentable wort. The longer mash length is because the enzymes might need more time to work at those lower temps.

If your mash tun doesn't have a lid, be ready to refire it or to add hot water infusions to keep the temps up.

152 is a great general mash temp, but I would shoot lower for a saison.

You don't need to stir the mash every 10 or 20 minutes and you don't need to wait 10 minutes after pouring in the sparge water.

Alright, shoot low, be ready to raise temp with infusions, and once it's in the mix don't mess with it. I'm also going to put some water in the lauter tun first? keeps the gunk out I guess? Starting bright and early tomorrow morning (noonish?) just after planting my 2 spankin new Wilammette rhizomes!

I agree. Lower mash temp is target. I went for 148. Had to add heat one time. I brew in a pot so I just turned my stove back on for a couple minutes and stirred like crazy so I did not scorch any grain. I might start a little earlier than 12. Try to mash in by 12 or the wife's gonna be nagging you about a late dinner because you spent all day screwing around with a pot of sugar water. She will shut up a few weeks later when you put a glass in front of her but...

ALright so, successful brew/planting day! Mashed lower that 148, more in the 146-145 range, but let it do it's thing adding additional infusions to bring the temp up for close to 2 hours. Runoff and sparge didn't stick, and I caramelized the sugar at 1.5lbs to a nice golden blonde color. While cooling the wort I went and got some big planters and soil to put my willamette rhizomes in and went and planted those in the mean time. They're against a south-facing wall and I'm zone 6 apparently so I'm hoping they take off well. Once the wort was 75 degrees I put it in the fermenter, aerated with a big spoon, and added the big gallon starter of mystery dme and nutrients, it was pretty high krausen and was all foamy and happy when I pitched it. Put the bucket in a warm dark upstairs closet and covered with with double-layer cheesecloth and tied it off around the rim so it's easy to get access to it to stir. Now to set the brewing brain aside and let that sucker get as hot as it wants, stirring daily for 5 days. I'm not gonna bother skimming the hop resins unless there's a damn good reason for it, all my closed fermentations don't get skimmed and they're none the worse for it. After 5 days I'm gonna put a lid on it and let it ferment out. S.G. is 1.068! probably because of mash temps and added table sugar. We'll see how she rides thanks all for the tips! A.G. definitely takes like twice the time but it seems like the juice is worth the squeeze. A good day of brewing, a good day of planting, sounds like an acceptable day for making saison! Another great thing about today, I out-hipstered the hipsters that work at my local nursery, just by being a do-it-yourself-er and somewhat of a hayseed. They were mystified I was growing hops and brewing

You stir your beer during fermentation?

From what I understand of open-fermentation giving it a light agitation helps it along, at least for the first few days. I'm not about to slosh it around violently but giving it a nice swirl couldn't hurt.

going off of some of this info, which, I presume is credible

RachmaelBenApplebaum said:

From what I understand of open-fermentation giving it a light agitation helps it along, at least for the first few days. I'm not about to slosh it around violently but giving it a nice swirl couldn't hurt.

going off of some of this info, which, I presume is credible

Video Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9xT8DHOZFE&list=UUzrSfJztggg8KhgBgNILORg&index=14

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Open ferment if you want, but don't play in the beer. Just leave the cover loose, with a portion of the bucket uncovered. After a few days, put the cover back on and place an airlock to let it finish.

Agitation may help on commercial size systems (maybe), but it could only cause negatives in homebrew IMO. It will add oxygen, and the possible for contamination.

In case anyone's been tuning in thought I'd give a little update. Slapped the lid on it after 3 days, didn't mess with it beyond the initial stir I gave it the day after pitching. Now since I can't seem to keep it high (it stays around 73-75 degrees when I'm not heating it) it's turned into feculent rhino-fart sulfur madness. It's only been a few days though so I'm not worried. I have been trying to keep it above 80 but we've had an unusually cold spring and it didn't warm up and stay warm as I thought it would. More in a few weeks.

You and I must live nearby. It's been snowing like crazy every Tuesday since early march

Ticebain said:

I agree. Lower mash temp is target. I went for 148. Had to add heat one time. I brew in a pot so I just turned my stove back on for a couple minutes and stirred like crazy so I did not scorch any grain. I might start a little earlier than 12. Try to mash in by 12 or the wife's gonna be nagging you about a late dinner because you spent all day screwing around with a pot of sugar water. She will shut up a few weeks later when you put a glass in front of her but...

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Hah, no wife or children, a GF but she leaves me alone while I'm working my damn magic. As for the weather, well, we've been known for the occasional May snow storm so I'm used to the rigors of growing in crap climate at altitude(used to have vine fruits, tree fruits, squash, greens etc) but I'm determined. Ferment is taking on more hop/fecal sulfur character. I'm just gonna leave this one to the whims of blind neglect for a few weeks and forget about it at 75-77 degrees. Who knows what it'll come out like after month+primary.