Heady Topper- Can you clone it?

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droder1 said:
anyone surprised john gave him the aok? (assuming he did)
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I don't think he has to give him approval. As long as he isn't selling it as "Conan, The Alchemist' proprietary strain" he is good.

I guess it's ok to allude to it though. This was something I asked Al about when I emailed him.
 
I've reached out to John again today to try and narrow down the hop bill a little further. I am wanting to know if we're missing a rogue hop, like Apollo or Summit, before trying my next stab at this. My thing about Apollo is from the BYO, because the guy who wrote that article was in contact with John, so it is possible he confirmed Apollo at some point in their conversations. If they went similar to my convos with John, he doesn't give quantity or placement info, just confirmation hops are there or not.
 
Coff said:
I don't think he has to give him approval. As long as he isn't selling it as "Conan, The Alchemist' proprietary strain" he is good.

I guess it's ok to allude to it though. This was something I asked Al about when I emailed him.
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got it, i've heard mixed, it seems like a grey area in any other situation except yeast, as no one can own or patent yeast (at least not without some very specific forced mutation as I understand it). I thought somewhere earlier in this thread or another thread, someone asked Wyeast and they said they can only sell "proprietary" strains they have banked if the brewer gives them permission. perhaps that is wyeasts choice.

That said, it sure seems like an interesting business at the very least... have someone do the heavy lifting (john) to get the flavors one wants, and then someone else cultures it and sells it. i'm not questioning this, nor being critical, don't get me wrong, its how it works, simple as that, just wearing my business hat and observing that its quite a unique situation, simply from a biz perspective.
 
Just got done with my Heady-inspired DIPA attempt:

91% Pearl (Muntons)
4% Caramalt
5% dextrose

Single infusion mash at 149F for 60min
OG = 1.074
Total IBU = 124
60min boil

1.5oz Apollo at 60 min (74 IBU)

1oz each Simcoe/Centennial/Columbus at flameout - hot whirlpool (212-185F) for 20min (calculated as a 15min addition (50 IBU)

1oz each Simcoe/Columbus/Amarillo once chilling began and wort dropped to 170F (0 IBU). Chilled from 170F to 66F in 15min.

90sec of pure O2, pitched Conan at 63F. Will let rise to 66F and hold there.

Won't list the whole dry hop schedule, but it will be 6oz total split between two additions of Simcoe/Columbus/Centennial/Galaxy.

Looking forward to seeing how this turns out.
 
theveganbrewer said:
I've reached out to John again today to try and narrow down the hop bill a little further. I am wanting to know if we're missing a rogue hop, like Apollo or Summit, before trying my next stab at this. My thing about Apollo is from the BYO, because the guy who wrote that article was in contact with John, so it is possible he confirmed Apollo at some point in their conversations. If they went similar to my convos with John, he doesn't give quantity or placement info, just confirmation hops are there or not.
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I exchanged messages with Dave, who wrote the BYO article, and I walked away with the impression that, from his perspective, he was mostly trying to write about the process (lots of late hops and whirlpool/aroma steeping), and not so much about the specific hops. I'm going out on a limb here, but my guess is that whatever information he got from Kimmich was therefore more about the process and less about confirming which hops were in or out.
 
Coopertown said:
I exchanged messages with Dave, who wrote the BYO article, and I walked away with the impression that, from his perspective, he was mostly trying to write about the process (lots of late hops and whirlpool/aroma steeping), and not so much about the specific hops. I'm going out on a limb here, but my guess is that whatever information he got from Kimmich was therefore more about the process and less about confirming which hops were in or out.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I do remember Dave saying something about him not even being sure John read his recipe, so what you're saying makes sense. I'm not sure how much to trust the hop bill, as I know from what John told me, there are some inaccuracies in that BYO recipe. But, the fact that what I have tried isn't quite there on hop aroma/taste, I'm willing to look in other directions to pin it down. I'd like to know about Apollo and Summit, and hope we can verify the American hops only, and see if the 6 hops are referring to the hop extract, not actual kettle hops.
 
I tried a beer someone gave me the other night - a black IPA. It was very, very good. Asked him what it was dry-hopped with as it was very heady topper-ish. He said simcoe and centennial. So, I think simcoe/centennial/columbus are the 3 main guys in this one.

I love how hard this is to copy.
 
I've been subscribed to this for about a month now and somewhere along the line I missed something (i.e. hopshots). Can anyone summarize what we know or don't know at this point? It seems like there's a consensus on the malt bill, atleast in regards to Pearl malt.
 
Hoplander said:
I've been subscribed to this for about a month now and somewhere along the line I missed something (i.e. hopshots). Can anyone summarize what we know or don't know at this point? It seems like there's a consensus on the malt bill, atleast in regards to Pearl malt.
Click to expand...

Confirmed:

Grain: Pearl, CaraMalt, Turbinado

Hops: Hop extract for bittering, Simcoe & Columbus for remainder.

~1.073OG, 1.010-1.014 FG (Varies over lifespan on yeast)

The rest of the info is in the first post of this thread.
 
theveganbrewer said:
Confirmed:

Grain: Pearl, CaraMalt, Turbinado

Hops: Hop extract for bittering, Simcoe & Columbus for remainder.

~1.073OG, 1.010-1.014 FG (Varies over lifespan on yeast)

The rest of the info is in the first post of this thread.
Click to expand...

Thanks. I definitely want to try this. Turbinado sugar goes into mash?
 
I think it's normal to add sugars after the flame is off. I have been doing mine in with the whirlpool since it's spinning around the sugars dissolve well.
 
I've been kinda busy and not online much recently, so sorry if this is a repeat, but I was told by a guy in my club that ECY (East Coast Yeast) will be releasing Conan in the near future. ECY29. I have no confirmation, other than I don't think this dude has a reason to BS, he's been a solid contributor to my club's Heady clone/Conan thread and isn't that sorta dude. Pretty cool if it happens, no more of the "guess the generation" game. If I hear more I will let you guys know.
 
NordeastBrewer77 said:
I've been kinda busy and not online much recently, so sorry if this is a repeat, but I was told by a guy in my club that ECY (East Coast Yeast) will be releasing Conan in the near future. ECY29. I have no confirmation, other than I don't think this dude has a reason to BS, he's been a solid contributor to my club's Heady clone/Conan thread and isn't that sorta dude. Pretty cool if it happens, no more of the "guess the generation" game. If I hear more I will let you guys know.
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He said it yesterday on Facebook. He's doing a few experimental strains for a local brew club's Big Brew coming up and one of those he mentioned was "very fruity from an amazing DIPA in the NE."
 
I'm thinking of doing a run to pick up some heady topper soon. I'll be leaving from the nyc, Fairfield county Connecticut area. Pm me if you are interested in me picking you up some.
 
NordeastBrewer77 said:
I've been kinda busy and not online much recently, so sorry if this is a repeat, but I was told by a guy in my club that ECY (East Coast Yeast) will be releasing Conan in the near future. ECY29. I have no confirmation, other than I don't think this dude has a reason to BS, he's been a solid contributor to my club's Heady clone/Conan thread and isn't that sorta dude. Pretty cool if it happens, no more of the "guess the generation" game. If I hear more I will let you guys know.
Click to expand...

Sort of still will be guess the Gen though because ECY got the yeast from a can of heady. Fortunately its recent so we know its not over Gen 10, and it should be well cared for by Al.
 
theveganbrewer said:
Sort of still will be guess the Gen though because ECY got the yeast from a can of heady. Fortunately its recent so we know its not over Gen 10, and it should be well cared for by Al.
Click to expand...

How do we know what generation the yeast is aside from the color?
 
DNuggs said:
How do we know what generation the yeast is aside from the color?
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John says you can smell the difference in yeast if you really know what to look for. I can smell it or taste it, I think. You can also check attenuation, you can refer to my post on it in my sig and help narrow it down. Now John doesn't go past gen 10, so I don't think we'll see anything less than 84% from ECY29 even if ECY got the 10th gen.
 
Observations thus far, 1st time using Conan on an HT-inspired DIPA:

1. Fast starter - Activity noted in less than 8hrs, full krausen in about 16hrs from pitching.

2. Krausen and fermentation vigor (observed through the carboy) reminiscent of English ale yeast (WLP002, S-04, etc). Makes sense considering the reported fruitiness of the yeast.

3. Airlock smells great, but really I don't know how one differentiates yeast-driven aroma from all those fruity hops. FWIW, my Conan starters never seemed to smell all that fruity, as some others have suggested.

We'll see how it finishes up, but it seems clear this yeast has English ancestry. Can't believe someone actually suggested it could be lager yeast.
 
theveganbrewer said:
John says you can smell the difference in yeast if you really know what to look for. I can smell it or taste it, I think.
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g-star said:
3. Airlock smells great, but really I don't know how one differentiates yeast-driven aroma from all those fruity hops. FWIW, my Conan starters never seemed to smell all that fruity, as some others have suggested.
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All 3 of the starters/cultures I've done on the stir plate smell EXACTLY like fresh peaches, apricots and baked bread. Best smelling yeast I've ever come in contact with.

My DIPA w/ Conan (recipe is a ways back in this thread) has been in the keg since Thursday and it has the mouth feel and flavor of heady to the t, although the aroma lacks the dankness, likely due to the age of the Simcoe hops I used - they were in my freezer from the 2011 crop. Overall it is the best DIPA I've brewed and I'll provide more tasting info after it's conditioned for at least 2 more weeks (still not even 4 weeks from brew day as of now).
 
HawksBrewer said:
All 3 of the starters/cultures I've done on the stir plate smell EXACTLY like fresh peaches, apricots and baked bread. Best smelling yeast I've ever come in contact with.
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In my experience, that sounds like hyperbole. By the time I got to the third step-up, I got a mildly pleasant yeasty fruitness from the decanted yeast. Certainly nothing mind-blowing. I guess that's why they say YMMV.
 
For what it is worth, I made a pale ale with harvested Conan yeast using only Simcoe. It is a delicious combination, and a beer I am going to certainly repeat.

My friends who have tried it are convinced the combination of the two creates the 'mango' often found in HT that folks previously attributed to Citra (which is known not to be in HT.)

Also, I've been drinking a fair amount of Mayflower IPA recently, and I'm convinced the resiny finish is comparable to HT. Very different beers, but in this one way, they have something similar. It uses Simcoe and Amarillo for taste, then Glacier for DH. I really think the Glacier has something to do with it, so when I try to clone HT, I am going to use Glacier as part (or all) of my DH.
 
Just washed the yeast from my first trial batch, and noticed the yeast ends up on the bottom below the trub. I kind of expected this since it's thought to have English origin.
Has anyone (or everyone) had this same result?

My addition of a 1/2 Lb of flaked wheat achieved the hazy look, but did not give me the "thickness" that Heady has. Maybe the 4oz dryhop will help with that.
I did
2oz columbus
1oz simcoe
1oz centennial

We'll see in 5 days or so how it went.
 
whitehause said:
Just washed the yeast from my first trial batch, and noticed the yeast ends up on the bottom below the trub. I kind of expected this since it's thought to have English origin.
Has anyone (or everyone) had this same result?

My addition of a 1/2 Lb of flaked wheat achieved the hazy look, but did not give me the "thickness" that Heady has. Maybe the 4oz dryhop will help with that.
I did
2oz columbus
1oz simcoe
1oz centennial

We'll see in 5 days or so how it went.
Click to expand...

Yes, that has been the case in all of my starters, yeast under trub.

On the Glacier hops, I haven't seen many good things said about them. I read a couple guys say they are spicy/minty.
 
Dry hopped my conan IPA with 1oz columbus, 0.7oz simcoe, and 0.3oz cascade last night. Forgot to put them in a little baggie thing - I'll still be able to save some slurry when it's all done and crashed-out, right? A few hop particles won't matter, right?

Right now it just tastes like a regular old ale. Can't really detect any peachiness from the Conan itself.
 
theveganbrewer said:
Confirmed:

Grain: Pearl, CaraMalt, Turbinado

Hops: Hop extract for bittering, Simcoe & Columbus for remainder.

1.073 OG
Click to expand...

Have we actually confirmed that this is Heady Topper? I don't know about that. There is definitely Pearl malt, hop extract, simcoe, and columbus, but the rest is either up for debate or stuff is missing, i.e. other hops and possibly other malts.
 
EyePeeA said:
Have we actually confirmed that this is Heady Topper? I don't know about that. There is definitely Pearl malt, hop extract, simcoe, and columbus, but the rest is either up for debate or stuff is missing, i.e. other hops and possibly other malts.
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That is what has been confirmed. The method and further ingredients to produce a full clone have yet to be determined.
 
I would say there is an OG range of 1.070-1.074 just like there is an FG range of 1.010-1.014.

There are definitely 6 American hops used in addition to the hop extract. I thought that was confirmed... so was Conan yeast. I've heard that ECY29 is similar to Conan, but I don't remember reading that it was verified to actually be Conan.

Did the head brewer actually say that he uses Thomas Fawcett CaraMalt or is this speculation? Also, there may very well be other malts we missed in the grist.

Who confirmed Turbinado? We went from absolutely no sugar to dextrose to cerelose to turbinado.
 
I think he is saying that those are the ingredients that he has been able to confirm with John, not that its the entire recipe but that those ingredients themselves are confirmed.
 
This thread seems really focused on Conan yeast. I'm not down playing the role of yeast. The other focus seems to be on confirming ingredients.

There have been several posts on recipe attempts. I think it would be most beneficial to summarize what clones have been brewed, how close were the results and if they were going to do another attempt what would they change.

I'm not fluent on this forum's features. But is there a way to have the attempts & retries summarized. It's difficult to find these attempts within the 790 posts so far.

My thoughts are we may never know exactly what the ingredients are. However, with the mass of people on this thread, we could attack this with the trial & error approach.
 
t_met said:
My thoughts are we may never know exactly what the ingredients are. However, with the mass of people on this thread, we could attack this with the trial & error approach.
Click to expand...

The problem is that the results will be primarily subjective, and thus unreliable. If we could get 25 brewers of similar skill brewing 25 controlled iterations, all sent to qualified tasters and compared to the real thing via triangle test, then maybe we could safely say the recipe is cloned. Absent that, we do the best we can with hearsay and hopefully get in the ballpark.
 
g-star said:
The problem is that the results will be primarily subjective, and thus unreliable. If we could get 25 brewers of similar skill brewing 25 controlled iterations, all sent to qualified tasters and compared to the real thing via triangle test, then maybe we could safely say the recipe is cloned. Absent that, we do the best we can with hearsay and hopefully get in the ballpark.
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This. And let's be honest, anyone who can't admit the shortcomings in their attempts are not as good as they may think. In this case, it's figuring out what's missing, not what's already in there.
 
You guys should know by now i dont say anything is in the recipe unless john has told me, the media, or someone I can confirm and verify. The ingredients I listed came from Johns mouth. Up to you to believe me or him I guess. Its not the whole recipe obviously.

I got a flood of info from John since January and haven't brewed an actual clone with all the new info yet, I dont think anyone else has either.

The common issues with everyone's earlier attempts were a lack of mouthfeel and the hop aroma was off, not enough pine and dankness. Nordeast suggested torrified wheat others have said white wheat, and then focusing on Columbus hops or some other mysterious hop not used yet.

And ECY29 is Conan.
 
EyePeeA said:
I would say there is an OG range of 1.070-1.074 just like there is an FG range of 1.010-1.014.
Click to expand...

I definitely appreciate your healthy skepticism.

My only contribution to this discussion has been relative to the OG (see post 592 in this forum). For me, the OG is more of a logic problem than it is a recipe formulation problem. The logic (to me, at least) is based on:

Data:
1. Two independent testers have taken repeated measurements of degassed FG, resulting in measurements of 1.010 to 1.014.
2. The stated ABV is 8%
3. Federal law pertaining to labeling of ABV allows for the contents to vary +/- 0.3% from the stated ABV (to allow for natural variation in the process without needing to apply for new labels every batch).
4. Heady Topper uses Conan yeast.
5. Generations of Conan yeast vary in attenuation; later generations have lower attenuation than newer generations.

Assuming:
1. A production brewery brewing 4 batches per week will vary their recipe as little as possible from one batch to the next, thus the OG will be relatively stable.
2. The measurements of FG are both valid and represent the max and min.

With this, deriving the OG becomes a simple math problem. Here's what I wrote earlier:

"Knowing they have +/- 0.3% ABV to play with without needing to change their packaging, they might have an OG of 1.073, which, with high attenuation (86.3%), would result in an FG of 1.010 (ABV=8.3%). With lower attenuation (80.8%), this would result in an FG of 1.014 (ABV=7.7%)."

Of course, if my assumptions are incorrect, then my results are also incorrect. Do you think I'm missing anything?
 
Coopertown said:
I definitely appreciate your healthy skepticism.

My only contribution to this discussion has been relative to the OG (see post 592 in this forum). For me, the OG is more of a logic problem than it is a recipe formulation problem. The logic (to me, at least) is based on:

Data:
1. Two independent testers have taken repeated measurements of degassed FG, resulting in measurements of 1.010 to 1.014.
2. The stated ABV is 8%
3. Federal law pertaining to labeling of ABV allows for the contents to vary +/- 0.3% from the stated ABV (to allow for natural variation in the process without needing to apply for new labels every batch).
4. Heady Topper uses Conan yeast.
5. Generations of Conan yeast vary in attenuation; later generations have lower attenuation than newer generations.

Assuming:
1. A production brewery brewing 4 batches per week will vary their recipe as little as possible from one batch to the next, thus the OG will be relatively stable.
2. The measurements of FG are both valid and represent the max and min.

With this, deriving the OG becomes a simple math problem. Here's what I wrote earlier:

"Knowing they have +/- 0.3% ABV to play with without needing to change their packaging, they might have an OG of 1.073, which, with high attenuation (86.3%), would result in an FG of 1.010 (ABV=8.3%). With lower attenuation (80.8%), this would result in an FG of 1.014 (ABV=7.7%)."

Of course, if my assumptions are incorrect, then my results are also incorrect. Do you think I'm missing anything?
Click to expand...

Works for me.
 
theveganbrewer said:
I got a flood of info from John since January and haven't brewed an actual clone with all the new info yet, I dont think anyone else has either.
Click to expand...

I did. But the only new info was Caramalt, so I swapped GNO with TF Caramalt. Ditched the Oat malt for Dextrose. With these changes, I just decided to mash at 151 F for 90 minutes.

1.072-1.012
126 IBUs Tinseth
90 minute boil

86.5% TF Pearl
5.0% Dextrose
5.0% TF Torrified Wheat
3.5% TF Caramalt

I too thought Turbinado was speculation. It was mentioned earlier for a color contribution, but my clone was spot on color-wise without it. I do not think it really matters at 5%, nor did I see or taste a difference using dextrose instead.

You claim the color is in the 5 SRM range, but my brewing software showed upper 6's and it looked identical to HT. I will post side-by-side pictures tonight if I can remember.

theveganbrewer said:
Nordeast suggested torrified wheat
Click to expand...

I first mentioned Torrified Wheat in my rough draft recipe on 2/15/13 (post #58). On 2/25/13 (post #289), you claimed there was no wheat in HT and Nordeast liked that post. Nordeast then mentioned torrified wheat on 3/23/13 (post #623) and you rolled with it. **Scratches head, but okay.
 
bobbrews said:
I did. But the only new info was Caramalt, so I swapped GNO with TF Caramalt. Ditched the Oat malt for Dextrose. With these changes, I just decided to mash at 151 F for 90 minutes.

1.072-1.012
126 IBUs Tinseth
90 minute boil

86.5% TF Pearl
5.0% Dextrose
5.0% TF Torrified Wheat
3.5% TF Caramalt

I too thought Turbinado was speculation. It was mentioned earlier for a color contribution, but my clone was spot on color-wise without it. I do not think it really matters at 5%, nor did I see or taste a difference using dextrose instead.

You claim the color is in the 5 SRM range, but my brewing software showed upper 6's and it looked identical to HT. I will post side-by-side pictures tonight if I can remember.



I first mentioned Torrified Wheat in my rough draft recipe on 2/15/13 (post #58). On 2/25/13 (post #289), you claimed there was no wheat in HT and Nordeast liked that post. Nordeast then mentioned torrified wheat on 3/23/13 (post #623) and you rolled with it. **Scratches head, but okay.
Click to expand...

I've had confusing emails from John on the wheat, can't say yes or no on it being in there or not. Nordeast and I both thought the grist without wheat or oats didn't have enough body and thought torrified wheat would help that out. You've been noted as having come up with the idea ;)

My latest recipe is 6.3 SRM. What did yours say? Can you post your SRM values for the grain you have input?

I have noticed some color differences in the real Heady. John said it doesn't happen much any more now that they blend more batches, but he said there was some slight variation prior to January. Sometimes is was a brighter orange, other times had a bit of a brownish color to it.

So, the big question is, how does your malt bill taste? Is it ready yet? I think you are the only one to brew close to what we think is the actual grain bill. I don't see a big issue with the dextrose/turbinado, I just report what is suspected to be in the real thing, probably not much if any taste difference at that small %.
 
I do not have very specific SRM specs, I just know it was somewhere between 6.5-7.0

My clone attempt is very close. I pick up more toasty breadiness in HT. It's extremely subtle, but lacking in a similar beer like Pliny. The pearl malt is definitely a factor. Additionally, I believe this clone may need either one of the following: 1) slightly more caramalt, or 2) a small portion of toasted grist base malt or wheat. Lagunitas uses a bit of toasted wheat for a few of their hoppy beers so it isn't out of the question.

HT = Top Pic
Clone = Bottom Pic

Sorry for the poor quality. In person, they were of identical color.

ht.jpg


793801710_2814799911_0.jpg
 
theveganbrewer said:
I've had confusing emails from John on the wheat, can't say yes or no on it being in there or not. Nordeast and I both thought the grist without wheat or oats didn't have enough body and thought torrified wheat would help that out. You've been noted as having come up with the idea ;)

My latest recipe is 6.3 SRM. What did yours say? Can you post your SRM values for the grain you have input?

I have noticed some color differences in the real Heady. John said it doesn't happen much any more now that they blend more batches, but he said there was some slight variation prior to January. Sometimes is was a brighter orange, other times had a bit of a brownish color to it.

So, the big question is, how does your malt bill taste? Is it ready yet? I think you are the only one to brew close to what we think is the actual grain bill. I don't see a big issue with the dextrose/turbinado, I just report what is suspected to be in the real thing, probably not much if any taste difference at that small %.
Click to expand...

I brewed this wknd, using some of the later info

Fawcett Pearl 87%
Caramalt 4.5%
Torrified Wheat 4.5%
(both Weyermann, couldn't get TF)
Dextrose 4%

152 mash

Hit OG about dead on, .001 high, 1.074

143IBU
60 min boil

60 min - 10 ml hopshot, .5 oz columbus (intentional, wanted to use both HS and hops in boil)
0 min (30 min whirlpool) - 2 oz columbus, 1.5 oz simcoe, 1 oz amarillo

pitched ~170B cells of conan, about 9 m/ml at 64. held 66-68, will raise to 72 beginning tomorrow.

will be 2 (maybe 3, tbd) stage dry hopping, 6 oz total even split between columbus, simcoe, amarillo

have 8 fresh cans of heady arriving friday. will report back.
 

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