Surly Darkness Style RIS Recipe, Looking for Feedback

This is my first attempt creating a recipe, and using Beersmith. I'd really appreciate some feedback.

I have 12lbs of Gold LME from Midwest that needs to be used, thought I'd do something big because I'm getting that extract twang in my lighter beers, not really my darker ones. This is a hacked attempt at a Surly Darkness AG recipe I found.. changed some things up, not sure for better or worse. Not really going for a clone, just something remotely similar & complex.

One major question, would the Gold LME work for this type of recipe?

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Estimated OG: 1.113 SG
Estimated Color: 65.8 SRM
Estimated IBU: 170.6 IBUs (this doesn't look right, not sure what's going on w/ Beersmith)
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
12 lbs 9.6 oz LME Golden Light (Briess) [Boil for 10 min Extract 11 68.7 %
1 lbs Golden Promise (Simpsons) (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 5.4 %
1 lbs Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 1 5.4 %
8.0 oz Black (Patent) Malt (500.0 SRM) Grain 3 2.7 %
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L (80.0 SRM) Grain 4 2.7 %
8.0 oz Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM) Grain 5 2.7 %
4.0 oz Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 6 1.4 %
2 lbs Candi Sugar, Dark (275.0 SRM) Boil 10.0 minSugar 7 10.9 %

2.00 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - Boil 90. Hop 8 71.2 IBUs
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 9 10.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 10 15.3 IBUs
2.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 12 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 13 0.0 IBUs

1.0 pkg Dry English Ale (White Labs #WLP007) [3L starter]

Your recipe looks pretty good; Darkness is a great beer. Your IBUs add up to 96.5 from what you posted. 170 would be crazy, though I think that's kind of beyond possible, even for such a high gravity beer. I had Darkness at a beer festival recently, and it didn't strike me as even having 96.5 IBUs. I thought it was a little more subtle on the hop front, but I was probably working up a buzz by that point, so what do I know?

I'd be interested to see the recipe you are basing this off of just as a point of comparison.

The gold LME should be fine. Typically you want to use a light colored base malt (or extract) as the basis for any recipe, even stouts, and then just use smaller amounts of colored and crystal malts to get your color and roasted flavors.

I would assume you are steeping the grains rather than doing a partial mash? If you are doing a partial mash you haven't really got enough of the Golden Promise as a base malt to back up the amount of roasted malts. If you are steeping, I might suggest adding a few more pounds of Golden Promise and making the jump to partial mash (but that's another kettle of fish).

I might also suggest adding the 2 lbs of candi sugar into your primary as your fermentation is slowing down (3-5 days), as it will be easier on your yeast if they are pitched into an environment with a little less sugar. This way, you might even be able to get away with a 2L starter instead of 3. It just makes things a bit easier, but it's all up to you!

In closing: try this recipe out, it looks pretty good.

Sloobie said:

I'd be interested to see the recipe you are basing this off of just as a point of comparison.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the feedback. Below is one of the recipes and here's some links:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/help-me-surly-darkness-clone-recipe-166009/
http://hopville.com/recipe/1276722

13.00 lbs Pale
4.00 lbs Golden Promise
2.00 Crystal 80
1.75 Flaked Oats
0.75 Chocolate
0.30 Black Patent
0.30 Roasted Barley
2.00 Dark Candy Sugar

The trick here is the hops. But depending on your system/efficiency this could be all over the board

2.00 Columbus 90
1.00 Amarillo 15
1.00 Simcoe 15
2.00 Amarillo 0
1.00 Simcoe 0

And one HELLOFA yeast starter.

Woh! I overlooked your amounts for your grain bill before (too much homebrew). You probably don't want all that black patent, roasted barley, and chocolate malt. Notice how little the original recipe is using; there's definitely a reason for it. These dark malts can get really overpowering in high amounts. I just saw a bunch of ounces and thought, "ok," but you should probably lower those values. If you use that much, you will likely make a beer with overpowering amounts of roast/chocolate. It would probably end up just being roasty and bitter, which would completely destroy your palate and you would quickly lose the complexity of Darkness.

I'd tone those amounts down closer to the original recipe. You don't need much more than 40 SRM, because anything above 40 is virtually indistinguishable from 40, anyway. Other than that, I'd say you're pretty good. Sorry for misleading you earlier! (though my other suggestions still stand).

Edit: On second thought, those amounts aren't outrageous, given that it's a Russian Imperial. They look like a lot to me, but it's all in your interpretation of the beer and what you want to create. The above is just my opinion.

I'm thinking you're right. I'll tone those down and try to figure out beersmith a little better. Revised recipe to come. Any other feedback would be great!

Here's an updated recipe. I'm going with a partial mash and I picked up the specialty grains today. Still not 100% certain about the hop schedule or the OG. I could only get 2oz Amarillo instead of 3, and I may want to lower the OG a little. Any advice is appreciated!

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 7.53 gal
Post Boil Volume: 6.03 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.122 SG
Estimated Color: 51.6 SRM
Estimated IBU: 87.2 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
3 lbs Golden Promise (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 15.0 %
1 lbs Crystal, Dark (80.0 SRM) Grain 2 5.0 %
1 lbs Oats, Golden Naked (10.0 SRM) Grain 3 5.0 %
8.0 oz Chocolate Malt (450.0 SRM) Grain 4 2.5 %
5.0 oz Black (Patent) Malt (500.0 SRM) Grain 5 1.6 %
5.0 oz Roasted Barley (550.0 SRM) Grain 6 1.6 %
4.0 oz Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 7 1.3 %
12 lbs 9.6 oz LME Golden Light (Briess) (4.0 SRM) - Boil 10.0 min Extract 8 63.1 %
1 lbs Candi Sugar, Dark (275.0 SRM) - Boil 10.0 min Sugar 9 5.0 %

2.00 oz Columbus [14.00 %] - Boil 60. Hop 10 61.7 IBUs
1.00 oz Amarillo [8.50 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 11 11.3 IBUs
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 13 14.2 IBUs
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 14 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 15 0.0 IBUs

1.00 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 12 -

1.0 pkg Dry English Ale (White Labs #WLP007) [35 Yeast 16 -

TYPE: Partial Mash

3L starter w/ stir plate is the max I can do. Might need to pick up another vial and pitch it on brew day.

I was designing around the same post you used as a base but just the grain bill (I'm going for different hop profile). The post does state to up the roasted malts but they do seem to be suggesting a lot. I think darkness has a significant sweet flavor that comes from the more golden promise, but you are doing partial mash so you will have to work with what you can. Special B should probably get bumped up as well as the caramel and raisin flavor is definitely there in a big way. Knowing Surly the also probably used all English roasted grains as well.

Here is my all grain recipe as of now, still tweaking it around. I don't know if there is a good substitute for golden promise in extract but if you wanted it to be a big part you might try to find one.

33% 2-Row (probably Canada Malting)
33% Golden Promise
8% Belgian Special B
7% Golden Naked Oats
4% English chocolate
4% English roasted barley
1% English Black
10% Dark Belgian candi sugar

Wyeast 1335

Using brewers gold and northern brewer hops shooting for 85IBU (Surly's published bitterness)

I hope this helps and let me know how it goes, I am worried about this one as well, its a boatload of grain and I want to set it on oak cubes for 3 months.

I'd increase special B to 1/2 lb and decrease C80 to 1/2 lb.

Black patent can be tricky to use, if you go overboard it can really take awhile to smooth out. 5 oz is certainly better than the 8 oz you had originally. Another option is to go with 1 lb Roasted Barley and skip BP altogether.

I also prefer Belgian candy syrup (D1 or D2) over the dark candi sugar. Better flavors IMO. I'm about to use 3 lbs of it in my Westy12 brew this weekend.

I really enjoy Darkness, great beer! Good luck and have fun with this biggun.

I agree with both of you, especially about decreasing the C80 and bumping up special b... but the grains are purchased and milled together, so I guess I'll see how it turns out. (unless you feel strongly about changing it, please let me know. I've never attempted this big of a stout) I did end up getting the d-180 candi syrup.

Still thinking about lowering the % of extract and bringing down the OG to around 1.100 instead of 1.122, which should be ~10.5 abv.

Recipe would look like this. I'm not overly concerned about the IBUs because this will age for a long time. Don't want it to age too sweet. Thoughts?

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 7.53 gal
Post Boil Volume: 6.03 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.099 SG
Estimated Color: 51.2 SRM
Estimated IBU: 101.9 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 85.4 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
3 lbs Golden Promise (Simpsons) (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 18.0 %
1 lbs Crystal, Dark (Simpsons) (80.0 SRM) Grain 2 6.0 %
1 lbs Oats, Golden Naked (Simpsons) (10.0 SRM) Grain 3 6.0 %
8.0 oz Chocolate Malt (450.0 SRM) Grain 4 3.0 %
5.0 oz Black (Patent) Malt (500.0 SRM) Grain 5 1.9 %
5.0 oz Roasted Barley (Simpsons) (550.0 SRM) Grain 6 1.9 %
4.0 oz Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 7 1.5 %
9 lbs 4.8 oz LME Golden Light (Briess) (4.0 SRM) Extract 8 55.8 %
1 lbs Candi Sugar, Dark (275.0 SRM) Sugar 9 6.0 %

2.00 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - Boil 60. Hop 10 72.1 IBUs
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 11 13.2 IBUs
1.00 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 12 -
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 13 16.6 IBUs
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 14 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 15 0.0 IBUs
1.0 pkg Dry English Ale (White Labs #WLP007) [35 Yeast 16 -

Looks good, I wouldn't sweat the C80/Spec B at all. I think you'll like the D2 syrup.

Agree that if it is aged, the IBU will be fine. Amazing how the bitterness can be in the background at that level, but it should given the huge malt bill.

Also the OG is really up to you. You're going to need a lot of yeast either way, and a 3L starter thats on a stir plate should be pretty good.

Let us know how it goes

I don't know. I've brewed a few RISs in my time, and somewhere in the 10-12% range of the grain bill is the sweet spot for roasted malts. Otherwise, your RIS just isn't all that roasty. If you don't want to take my word for it, listen to the initial Jamil Show podcast, where he's pushing fairly similar percentages. Large quantities of black (patent) malt generally aren't that horrible, either. I prefer it to roasted barley. I've used 1.5lbs in a 5 gallon batch, and had it all come out very well.

I'm not sure I understand the purpose of the dark sugar. Other than that, and the low roast malt rate (I just think given the high OG and hop rates, you'll want some roast to balance it, or it won't seem like an RIS), it looks decent to me.

GuldTuborg said:

I don't know. I've brewed a few RISs in my time, and somewhere in the 10-12% range of the grain bill is the sweet spot for roasted malts. Otherwise, your RIS just isn't all that roasty. If you don't want to take my word for it, listen to the initial Jamil Show podcast, where he's pushing fairly similar percentages. Large quantities of black (patent) malt generally aren't that horrible, either. I prefer it to roasted barley. I've used 1.5lbs in a 5 gallon batch, and had it all come out very well.

I'm not sure I understand the purpose of the dark sugar. Other than that, and the low roast malt rate (I just think given the high OG and hop rates, you'll want some roast to balance it, or it won't seem like an RIS), it looks decent to me.

Click to expand...

Agreed, don't drop it to much. If you are concerned about harsh roast flavors you might try steeping the roasted grains and adding at boil or adding the roast grains at mashout.

Thanks, the 10-12% is good to know. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember Darkness to have much of a roasty flavor. It has a lot going on and I'm sure it's there, but it's not something that stands out in my memory.

Its big, pretty smooth, with some roast. But I would call it more complex than roasty. A lot of this complexity comes from their Spec B and belgian candi additions I would venture. Also not sure how long they age it, but time is another factor.

My low gravity Irish Dry Stout was 11% roasted barley and had a roasty character. My RIS had about 9% roasted malts. It was somewhat roasty 6-8 months from brew date, but has melded into more of a smooth and complex character.

solbes said:

Its big, pretty smooth, with some roast. But I would call it more complex than roasty. A lot of this complexity comes from their Spec B and belgian candi additions I would venture. Also not sure how long they age it, but time is another factor.

Click to expand...

Unless you know otherwise, Surly doesn't list special b as an ingredient. I just added it because I like it. http://www.surlybrewing.com/beer/surly-beer-seasonal-beers.html

It also looks like they list their grains in order of %, with 'Roast' being the last on the list. Not sure if they do, but the other beers appear listed this way as well.

Edit: I also read that someone with knowledge said they do use a lot of crystal in darkness, which would correlate with being listed 3rd and 4th on their website. Not saying it's true, but I believe everything I read on the internet

They do list "medium crystal" for some beers and "dark crystal" in others. Medium crystal is usually 60L, but I suppose you could expand between 40 and 80L. I would venture dark cystal could be 80, 120, special B (usually 120-180L). Surly lists dark crystal for Darkness. Special B is just a highly kilned crystal malt, but has that characteristic burnt raisin, plum, roasty kind of carmel. The one instance I had it, I tasted some of these notes. But it was over a year ago, so you be the judge.

Surly (supposedly) uses mostly English malts for most of their brews. Speaking with the dudes at Northern, this is probably the same malt they're using when referring to "Dark Crystal", which is listed at 70-80°: http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/english-dark-crystal.html

Special B is Belgian, from a different roaster/supplier (I think), and 147°: http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/belgian-special-b.html

Just pointing out reasons why I didn't think Darkness was using Special B. Anyone that knows any facts, please chime in.

'nother edit:

solbes said:

Special B is just a highly kilned crystal malt, but has that characteristic burnt raisin, plum, roasty kind of carmel. The one instance I had it, I tasted some of these notes. But it was over a year ago, so you be the judge.

Click to expand...

I definitely agree with you here. I pick those up too, and more so than any roasted notes. I added some special b to my recipe for this purpose, but I'm not sure how Surly achieves this if they're not using it. Maybe it's the combination of dark Belgian candi sugar and 'English Dark Crystal'?

I am pretty sure that special B is their dark crystal here. It definitely has the special be flavor notes, and as pointed out above it would take a few grains to get this without special B. Not surprised they wouldn't tell you exactly what crystal malt they used, wouldn't want to tip their hand too much. Also, note that their bender recipe (northern brewer Surly collaboration) has special B in it, and we know they like to use a lot of the same grains in multiple beers (golden promise, golden naked).

As for the order of grains on Surly's website: if you look at their website and compare to the well documented recipes northern brewer has the order does not necessarily correspond to % grist order (thought the general base malts are always listed first). You can see this with their Bitter Brewer recipe and description.

Totally agree on 10-12% roasted, let it age and you will get what you want. You may find this to be an interesting post on the recipe that was originally posted from hopville:
http://beeradvocate.com/community/threads/surly-darkness-clone-input-needed.10247/

The think I can't figure out is if I want to mash with the roasted grains or add them at mashout

Joker_on_Jack said:

Also, note that their bender recipe (northern brewer Surly collaboration) has special B in it, and we know they like to use a lot of the same grains in multiple beers (golden promise, golden naked).

Click to expand...

Good call! Saw Northern's Bender recipe and I wish someone at Northern would have picked up on this when I was discussing this recipe and "Dark Crystal" with them. They actually kinda told me the opposite. Should have used more spec b in mine.

I brewed this a few days ago and the wort tastes very promising. Obviously very strong, definitely some complexity and a tad of roast in the background. Seems like it could be very good in a few months. I'll post the final recipe I used soon.

I hope the OP doesn't mind my posting this, but I was about to start a thread when I saw this so figured it fits in with this thread.

I have also been working on a Darkness-type RIS - though not going for an exact clone or anything, just something in the neighborhood:

90 min Boil
Mash @ 154
1.109 OG
1.025ish FG
Marris Otter 76.5%
Black Malt (Simpson’s) 3.5%
Golden Naked Oats 3.5%
Roasted Barley 3.5%
Special B 2.6%
Chocolate Malt (Simpson’s) 2.6%
Dark Crystal (Simpson’s 70-80L) 2.6%
Pale Chocolate (Fawcett) 1.7%
D-180 Syrup 3.5%
WLP001 or WLP007 (would prefer 007, but I have a 001 in another beer already and may brew this relatively soon so I'd rather repitch)

I’ll use CTZ, Simcoe and either Amarillo or Centennial with some FWH, hefty bittering charge with CTZ (70 IBUish), and a large addition for a hopstand at flameout. IIRC Darkness is fairly hoppy if you drink it young (especially 2012) so I’ll probably brew this with that in mind.

Anything glaring that I should change? Never brewed an RIS.

AnchorBock said:

I hope the OP doesn't mind my posting this, but I was about to start a thread when I saw this so figured it fits in with this thread.

I have also been working on a Darkness-type RIS - though not going for an exact clone or anything, just something in the neighborhood:

90 min Boil
Mash @ 154
1.109 OG
1.025ish FG
Marris Otter 76.5%
Black Malt (Simpson’s) 3.5%
Golden Naked Oats 3.5%
Roasted Barley 3.5%
Special B 2.6%
Chocolate Malt (Simpson’s) 2.6%
Dark Crystal (Simpson’s 70-80L) 2.6%
Pale Chocolate (Fawcett) 1.7%
D-180 Syrup 3.5%
WLP001 or WLP007 (would prefer 007, but I have a 001 in another beer already and may brew this relatively soon so I'd rather repitch)

I’ll use CTZ, Simcoe and either Amarillo or Centennial with some FWH, hefty bittering charge with CTZ (70 IBUish), and a large addition for a hopstand at flameout. IIRC Darkness is fairly hoppy if you drink it young (especially 2012) so I’ll probably brew this with that in mind.

Anything glaring that I should change? Never brewed an RIS.

Click to expand...

I would use 007, not the same with 001 (if your going for darkness)--> It does flocculate so well.

Why two chocolate malts, just use simpsons or english and up the %. I would go down on black and up on special B. I think the 10-12% roasted grain discussed earlier is a good target.

Pale chocolate has a much different flavor from a standard Chocolate malt (not just less roasty) - I like using both in certain beers. What's your thought process on dropping the black down and the Special B up? I think the D180 syrup will contribute additional dark fruit/plum/raisin flavors much like the Special B. I guess you can't have too much of that in a beer like this though.

I agree on WLP007, just not sure if I'll have time to get another beer brewed with that before the RIS - we shall see. Still not going for an exact clone or anything so I don't think I can go wrong either way.

Thanks for the input!

AnchorBock said:

I hope the OP doesn't mind my posting this, but I was about to start a thread when I saw this so figured it fits in with this thread.

Click to expand...

Not at all! I'm enjoying what this thread has become. I think it'd be great to get the title changed to something with Darkness in it. More people would probably click & contribute. Anyone know if that's possible?

AnchorBock said:

Pale chocolate has a much different flavor from a standard Chocolate malt (not just less roasty) - I like using both in certain beers. What's your thought process on dropping the black down and the Special B up? I think the D180 syrup will contribute additional dark fruit/plum/raisin flavors much like the Special B. I guess you can't have too much of that in a beer like this though.

I agree on WLP007, just not sure if I'll have time to get another beer brewed with that before the RIS - we shall see. Still not going for an exact clone or anything so I don't think I can go wrong either way.

Thanks for the input!

Click to expand...

The drop in black was with the rise in chocolate, keeping the roast malts in check so you don't end up to high. The raise in special B is just as you said, adding to the flavor (i tend to get the caramel flavor from it not just the raisin). Any reason you have to repitch, why not just do a starter?

Joker_on_Jack said:

The drop in black was with the rise in chocolate, keeping the roast malts in check so you don't end up to high. The raise in special B is just as you said, adding to the flavor (i tend to get the caramel flavor from it not just the raisin). Any reason you have to repitch, why not just do a starter?

Click to expand...

Those changes make sense. I mainly like to repitch with a beer like this because I brew quite a bit and also brew a lot of session beers so I typically will plan on 2-4 batches with a single vial of yeast and never need to make a starter (depending on timing).

Maybe I'll just push this back and make something sessionable with WLP007 to build up some yeast. Might as well go with the yeast that Surly uses if I'm even somewhat trying to clone this.

Is this closer to what you'd reccommend? I still might work in the Pale Chocolate, but might be simpler to not deal with that - we'll see:

90 min Boil
Mash @ 154
1.109 OG
1.025ish FG
Marris Otter 76.5%
Black Malt (Simpson’s) 2%
Golden Naked Oats 3.5%
Roasted Barley 3.5%
Special B 4.1%
Chocolate Malt (Simpson’s) 4.3%
Dark Crystal (Simpson’s 70-80L) 2.6%
D-180 Syrup 3.5%
WLP007

I might play around with the gravity and mash temp as well and actually go for more of a clone - might as well if I'm going 90% of the way towards a clone anyway.

ja09 said:

Not at all! I'm enjoying what this thread has become. I think it'd be great to get the title changed to something with Darkness in it. More people would probably click & contribute. Anyone know if that's possible?

Click to expand...

If you PM a Mod they might be able to edit the title for you.

AnchorBock said:

Those changes make sense. I mainly like to repitch with a beer like this because I brew quite a bit and also brew a lot of session beers so I typically will plan on 2-4 batches with a single vial of yeast and never need to make a starter (depending on timing).

Maybe I'll just push this back and make something sessionable with WLP007 to build up some yeast. Might as well go with the yeast that Surly uses if I'm even somewhat trying to clone this.

Is this closer to what you'd reccommend? I still might work in the Pale Chocolate, but might be simpler to not deal with that - we'll see:

90 min Boil
Mash @ 154
1.109 OG
1.025ish FG
Marris Otter 76.5%
Black Malt (Simpson’s) 2%
Golden Naked Oats 3.5%
Roasted Barley 3.5%
Special B 4.1%
Chocolate Malt (Simpson’s) 4.3%
Dark Crystal (Simpson’s 70-80L) 2.6%
D-180 Syrup 3.5%
WLP007

I might play around with the gravity and mash temp as well and actually go for more of a clone - might as well if I'm going 90% of the way towards a clone anyway.

Click to expand...

If your going for clone I would go toward this for a base malt:

33% 2-Row (probably Canada Malting)
33% Golden Promise

They definitely use golden promise,the specialty malts are really up to interpretation, your's looks pretty good.

On a side note Surly Bitter Brewer is a great session that uses 007.

Here's the final recipe I went with. It was a partial mash.

Boil Size: 7.53 gal
Post Boil Volume: 6.03 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.50 gal
Bottling Volume: 5.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.107 SG
Estimated Color: 51.3 SRM
Estimated IBU: 96.7 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 86.4 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type %/IBU
3 lbs Golden Promise (Simpsons) (2.0 SRM) Grain 16.8 %
1 lbs Crystal, Dark (Simpsons) (80.0 SRM) Grain 5.6 %
1 lbs Oats, Golden Naked (Simpsons) (10.0 SRM) Grain 5.6 %
8.0 oz Chocolate Malt (450.0 SRM) Grain 2.8 %
5.0 oz Black (Patent) Malt (500.0 SRM) Grain 1.7 %
5.0 oz Roasted Barley (Simpsons) (550.0 SRM) Grain 1.7 %
4.0 oz Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 1.4 %
10 lbs 8.0 oz LME Golden Light (Briess) (4.0 SRM) (Boil 10.0 mins) Extract 58.8 %
1 lbs D-180 Candi Syrup, Dark (275.0 SRM) (Boil 10.0 mins) Sugar 5.6 %

2.00 oz Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] - Boil 60. Hop 68.4 IBUs
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 12.6 IBUs
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 15.8 IBUs
1.00 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 0.0 IBUs

1.00 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining -

3L starter w/ stir plate Dry English Ale (White Labs #WLP007) [35 Yeast -

Brewed ^ last Tues and somehow I only achieved 1.093. It was a late addition extract (10 min), and I had a good pre-boil gravity after the partial mash ~ 1.026, Beersmith calculated 1.022. My post boil volume was where is should have been, maybe even a little lower.

No idea how I didn't get closer to my target OG. Maybe the quality of my extract wasn't the greatest?? Seems every Midwest kit I've done in the past it came out low, but this is silly. I'm thinking it's either Beersmith or my extract quality, leaning towards the latter. Any suggestions?

Anyways, the wort was delicious and it seems like it has real potential.

LME should have a very consistent amount of sugar in it, as it is made by a tightly controlled manufacturing process. Midwest to the best of my knowledge uses only Briess LME. It has just over 36 points per pound per gallon.

Taking your recipe, you have 10.5 lbs of LME diluted into 6.03 gallons of wort. That should add 63 points to your gravity. You had 32 gravity points from your partial mash (1.026 @ 7.53 boiled down to 6.03 gal). Roughly 5 points from the D180. Adding the three should give you an OG of 1.100. If I had to guess what the disrepancy is, I'd go with volume estimation error.

If you really wanted to hit 1.10, just add a lb of brown sugar Should still be malty enough I would think.

edit, duplicate post

Thanks solbes. I'm not the most experienced brewer (~15 batches so far), so this helps. I'm just going with Beersmith's standard calculations, not sure where the discrepancy is quite yet. Volumes were pretty accurate as far as I'm aware of.

Fermentation is slowing down so it would be a good time to add some more fermentables. Took a reading yesterday and it was at 1.036 and the krausen had completely fallen with no signs of activity in the carboy. Doing a little research, I found my basement might be a little too cold for 007 to finish. Moved it upstairs to 70* and it's picked back up nicely. This one made me a little nervous because I was expecting a blowoff and only got a small 1" krausen.

I was thinking about adding another pound of d180 to keep it in line with Surly's ingredients, but the sample tasted fantastic so I might just leave it alone. It had some real raisin/berry flavors that I wasn't expecting. Really liked it so far.

Any idea how another # of d180 would affect the flavor? and should it be boiled with a little water, or just dumped in?

Still bubbling away slowly, so I'm hoping my FG will be around 1.025, which would put it ~ 9% abv. Don't know if I have enough roasted malts to balance another # of d-180. I'll probably just leave it alone, especially if I enjoy the next sample as much as the last. I've never used brown sugar, will that dry it out similar to corn sugar?

Its almost the same thing, but has a small % of unfermentables that can give rummy overtones in med/large quanitities. Yes it will dry it out some.

It honestly sounds like its going very well. I would probably leave it as RIS should be malt bombs.

I've got a Belgian Dark Strong going now that has 2 lbs of D180 and 1 lb of D90. But it's a beer with a completely different flavor profile. Dang does that syrup make it taste good though

Also forgot to mention that I'm planning to experiment with 3 secondaries and I need to figure out what the hell I'm doing:
3 gal as-is
1 gal w/ vanilla bean (1 bean?) & vodka (50ml?)
1 gal w/ bourbon (100ml?), oak (1oz medium toast?) & tad of coffee (50ml?)

I don't really want to add vanilla beans & oak to the secondaries, rather create an extract from soaking so I don't have to transfer again. Any idea how long it would take to achieve these flavors soaking in liquor? Any other feedback is appreciated.

I would just add the vanilla, oak, or coffee at the end of secondary and bottle when the taste is right. No extra transfers.

I've never done vanilla beans, but usually 1-2 is enough for 5 gallons.

100/mL or 3 oz of bourbon may be a bit much for 1 gallon. But that may be desirable for you too. Before you start, you might want to do a soak&dump routine with bourbon/oak as the first dump is very tannic. For the oak part, buy cubes not chips. Chips have a lot more surface area and are more unforgiving on time. I would say 0.5-.75 oz of med cubes in one gallon. Check at 2 weeks, then every week until its right.

For the coffee, I would coarsely grind some beans (maybe 0.2-0.3 oz?), put in a fine mesh hop bag, and place into secondary. 24 hours should be plenty of time, then pull the bag out.

Awesome idea of getting 3 beers with one batch.

solbes said:

I would just add the vanilla, oak, or coffee at the end of secondary and bottle when the taste is right. No extra transfers.

Click to expand...

I'm planning on bulk aging for 3-4 months in the secondaries, so I was hoping to add these flavors at the beginning so they can meld.

I've read people on here creating extracts from soaking vanilla beans in vodka. Hoping to do this with the vanilla and oak, but not sure how long to soak. Think I need to do some searching!

As for the vanilla, split the bean down the middle, scrape out the seeds, and submerge in a small amount of vodka for 1-2 weeks. You should be good to go after that. I don't think longer will cause problems, like bad tastes, but I think after 2 weeks, any extra flavor you get is pretty minimal.

I would forgo the coffee bean adds and just buy some nice espresso or cold press and direct pitch it.

I was going to do this recipe with bourbon on oak cubes. Just soak the bourbon on the oak chips for a day and then pitch both. The cubes shouldn't make a mess in the secondary.