BIAB temperature control

I've done 3 BIAB 5 gallon batches now indoors on the stove
I can get to 164 and mash in for 60 min at 154 quite easily
But my problem is with the mash out at 170
I normally use my thermapen (5 inch probe)

But since my pot is tall and thin-nish I wonder if I need to get a longer probe to get a more accurate temperature or just rely on stirring the grain and trusting the short probe thermapen ?

Will stirring the grain actually change the temp much if at all ?

For a longer probe thermometer I was looking at something like this
http://www.thermoworks.com/products/low_cost/rt610b_12+24.html

I ask because the temp just didn't seem to move very much at all for the longest time i.e 20 min later and leaving my current cheapo Walmart long stem thermometer clipped to the side I didn't see the needle move much. That thermometer isn't that ideal anyway since each notch was 10 degrees

Also would a thermowell temperature gauge typically under represent the mash out temp since the location of the probe is sitting in liquid versus within the grain ?

I could drill a hole and add one but if those aren't as accurate I won't really bother

I can't answer all of your questions, but I can tell you that I use a floating thermometer for periodic temperature checks and it seems to work well.

Also, I'm not sure that stirring the bag is a problem. I have heard that squeezing it could release unwanted tannins that could provide off flavors, but I have no direct experience there. I would just leave it alone and keep an eye on the temp. Then rinse afterwards to get as much sugar trapped in the bag back into the wort.

I put the bag in a strainer over the pot with the wort and slowly rinse with 150* F water from another pot until there's little-to-no liquid left in the bag before moving on to the boil.

No,I use a 5 gallon paint strainer bag in my 5G kettle for PB/PM beers. The use of the paint strainer bag makes it easier to stir out/break down dough balls & get the grains evenly wetted. It's def raised my efficiency,& thus,OG's. So stirring the bag is def a good thing. Just like in a nash tun,same reason.
I use a winter hunting coat with thinsulate lining surrounded by some sunthetic down stuff. Traps air & thus holds heat well. I use a cake cooling rack in the bottom of the kettle for the grains in paint strainer bag to sit on so as not to burn. With floating thermometer inside lashed to one handle with some twist ties. I set the coat open on the island across from the srtove with two pot hilders lined up on it. Set the covered kettle on that,pull the hood over the top and snug it down. Pull sides of coat around that,& tie sleeves once to hold it all tight in place for the 1 hour mash. The temp always goes up 1 degree. So try that,it works great for me.

Mashout isn't really necessary for BIAB, so you might consider skipping it altogether. However, if you feel that you need to do one, then it's important that you stir pretty frequently while heating to M/O temp due to temperature stratification. It doesn't matter which thermometer you use, no method of temp monitoring will be accurate without constant agitation when using direct heating. When I used to do mashout, I used a Thermapen while stirring the entire time to ensure that the temp was accurately monitored. I've since discovered the mashout to be a waste of time and no longer do it. YMMV.

I agree with LLBeanJ on the mashout. I don't do it with BIAB. I also noted yesterday that stirring the grains had very little affect on the temperature. I ended up adding some cold water and a few ice cubes to bring my mash temp down before letting it sit for the mash time.

Stirring the mash is about getting good efficiency,& thus,OG's. It's not about temp control. You do that with the heat & a thermometer. Then wrap it up like I do to hold the heat in & steady for the 1 hour mash. I found wraping it up to be way easier than trying to use heat adjustment. But I do have an electric stove with aftermarket burners to get it heating up quicker.

Unless I'm misunderstanding the issue, OP is not talking about monitoring the temp during the sacc rest, as he believes he has that under control. He's talking about monitoring the temp while the mash is being direct heated from sacc rest to mashout temp. If you don't stir while heating, the temps will be all over the place due to stratification.

I'm talking about the mash,not sac rest. But I can see using my floating thermometer rig for the mash out too. Just put it back on the heat again. The way I wrap up the kettle in that coat it holds temp so well,steam escapes when I open it up. And the floating thermometer has the end near the bottom,but not on it while mashing all wrapped up like that. It's important to hold mash temp first,then learn to hold mash out temp. Not everyone does a mash out.

Why would anyone need to monitor temp for mashout? It's a 10 minute rest. Get it to 168-170, wait 10 minutes, and it's done. I guess I don't understand.

Thanks all and especially LLBeanJ for the clarification
Yes keeping an even mash in temp of 154 or thereabouts for an hour isn't the issue. With covered towels, it really doesn't drop at all

It is this problem of stratification that I'm finding
My beers always tasted better from extract versus all grain BIAB and I think it's because I have poor temp control for mashout. I think my cleaning and sanitation practices are fine and I do aerate and pitch at the lower end of the range and keep a reasonable hold of temperature in the house during the early stages of fermentation through to when I'm ready to bottle i.e water bath

I was under the impression that mashout although not mandatory does improve efficiency and since I have to raise the temperature anyway I thought I would do it i.e got nothing to lose. I wasn't aware as someone mentioned that it's really not necessary for BIAB. To be honest, I don't understand why it's not beneficial for BIAB but ok for non BIAB. Can someone comment on that

I think for my next batch I'm going to avoid mashing out and just remove the grain bag and boil away. I do scrunch the bag to get more wort out. I only do that since I'm limited to how much water I use on the initial boil (7 to 7.5 gallons) and I want to get at least 5.5 gallons after trub loss, evaporation and everything else

Also when is the start of the boil ? When you first see signs of bubbling in the wort or when in fact it does reach 212 ?

The point of mashout is to stop conversion. Pulling the grains from the wort does the same thing, since the grains are no longer in contact with the bulk of the wort. If you are looking for efficiency gains, you'd be better off mashing with a little less water and do a 1 or 2 gallon sparge by either dunking or pouring the sparge water over the grains. I do this and get 85%+ on a consistent basis. If the sparge is too much of a hassle, then don't worry about it and increase your grain bill as needed to achieve whatever efficiency you get when doing full-volume (no-sparge).

The boil starts when the bubbles occur. I generally start the timer and add my 60 minute hops (assuming a 60 minute boil) when the hot break dissipates. Depending on your elevation, you may never reach 212.

What seems to be the issue with your all-grain batches that makes you say that you have had better results with your extract batches? I can't believe a botched mashout would make or break an all-grain batch.

LLBeanJ. The problem I'm having is getting the temperature to 170 with the grain in place. 164 with no grain and then rest for an hour to 154 is no issue. As soon as I stir or if I don't stir enough or not at all, the temp seems to be all over the place. I obviously don't see any of that with extracts since I'm just boiling. If I screwed up the mashout and it reached 180 somehow then isn't that leading to tannins and a poor end result ?

You could boil the grains and no tannins will be extracted unless your pH is out of whack to begin with. Brewers do just that when doing a decoction mash and don't get tannins. So, out-of-control temp alone will not result in tannins. Not saying you aren't getting tannins, but the planets do have to align correctly for it to happen.

What is it about the finished beer that you haven't liked? Too sweet? Too dry? Astringent? Describe the issue.

It's the astringency. The last but one BIAB was a hoegardden type effort. It was posted on this site. I felt a lot of care was taken throughout except when this mashout occurred. 3 weeks fermenting and 3 weeks bottling. I did try saving a few bottles and drinking them after 5 weeks. Not a huge difference. I was very disappointed

What are you using for water? It could be a pH issue, which is something that would not be a problem with extract, but would be with all-grain.

I'm actually just using unfiltered tapwater from the kitchen sink
I did think about using some pH stabilizer. But reading some threads, some were suggesting it was more trouble than it was worth

I haven't read too much about pH
Are there bands of acceptability and are there certain nutrients to look out for ?
A copy of my local water quality report is here
http://www.sjwater.com/for_your_information/education_safety/water_quality_report/
Page 4-5 has some parameters, but I don't know what to look out for, and whether any of this is a concern

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I'm far from a water chemistry expert, but I do know that hardness and alkalinity will affect mash pH.

Assuming your water source is groundwater and not surface water, it looks to me like you have fairly hard water. Does this seem consistent with what you notice around your house (e.g. calcium and mineral deposits that build up around your plumbing)? Unfortunately, the report does not list alkalinity (or bicarbonate values), so that part of the equation is incomplete. If I had to take a best guess, though, I'd say your problem is likely with your water. That would be the first place to start.

Next brew, try using all bottled water or 50/50 tap/bottled and see if it fixes your problem. Also, buy some of those disposable pH test strips that you can get from your LHBS and test your mash pH. Ideally, it should be in the 5.2-5.4 range (measured at room temp) after dough-in.

And skip the mashout.

Palmer gives a basic primer on water chemistry for brewing, which you may find helpful:

http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter15-1.html

Hopefully, somebody on the forum who is better versed in water chemistry will chime in and offer some more solid info.

LLBeanJ, but if it's his water.....wouldn't that also affect his extract brews? Or is the pH here mostly an issue with the mash and not the boil?

No, this is related to mash pH and the subsequent extraction of tannins as a result. It doesn't come into play for extract brews.

LLBeanJ said:

The point of mashout is to stop conversion. Pulling the grains from the wort does the same thing, since the grains are no longer in contact with the bulk of the wort. If you are looking for efficiency gains, you'd be better off mashing with a little less water and do a 1 or 2 gallon sparge by either dunking or pouring the sparge water over the grains. I do this and get 85%+ on a consistent basis. If the sparge is too much of a hassle, then don't worry about it and increase your grain bill as needed to achieve whatever efficiency you get when doing full-volume (no-sparge).

The boil starts when the bubbles occur. I generally start the timer and add my 60 minute hops (assuming a 60 minute boil) when the hot break dissipates. Depending on your elevation, you may never reach 212.

Click to expand...

I have found I need to do both a mash-out and a 20 minute sparge in a smaller kettle to get my desired consistent efficiencies in the mid-80's.

I tried a couple of batches where I thought the mash-out seemed like a waste since I was doing a sparge in a kettle with water heated to 170F. But both batches ended up having an efficiency in the 60's. So, I went back to doing the mash-out and then the sparge and bingo, efficiencies were back in the 80's for me and have been ever since.

It's a bit of a hassle for me in that it is added time to my brew day, but for me, it's worth the hassle...

That's the beauty of homebrewing. There are so many variations on how to achieve a really good finished product and in the end, it's all a matter of which variation works best for each homebrewer!

LLBeanJ said:

No, this is related to mash pH and the subsequent extraction of tannins as a result. It doesn't come into play for extract brews.

Click to expand...

Knowing this, it sounds like this is more of a water problem than anything else?

MMJfan said:

That's the beauty of homebrewing. There are so many variations on how to achieve a really good finished product and in the end, it's all a matter of which variation works best for each homebrewer!

Click to expand...

Yeah, that says it all right there. Do what works for you. Might take a bit of trial and error before you figure it out, but once you do, it becomes your system.

If you want to simplify and speed up your brew day, I'd drop the mashout. One less step with biab. I've stop doing them and I'm happy with my beers.

You should call your municipality and ask about the pH of the water. Can't find that in the water report you linked to. That will start you on the way to estimating the ph of your mash and possibly diagnosing the astringency issue.

It looks like your water comes from three different sources. You probably have some seasonal variability in alkalinity and ph. I would ask the water department about that too.