Worth the investment..?

This is my fermentor:



Made of polycarbonite plastic.. tough as nails and light as a feather. Completely see thru for all your yeast voyeuristic needs.

They also clean REAL easy.. no brushes needed, just a cotton rag and some iodine.

I have been considering reproducing something similar that would fit perfectly in a kitchen sink. It would have handles built in amoungst other additional changes and features.

Does anyone think there would be a market against carboys, better bottles, buckets and the like..? A a retail of say $59.99 (Would include the spout, vent, top and bottle)

Getting some investors together, and contemplating a kickstart program.

All I can say is that I started my brewing hobby with one, and have looked for a second for a while. They haven't been easy to find and those that I have talked to that have had one wouldn't give it up, just as I wouldn't give up mine.

So.. Whats everyone think.. worth the pursuit..? If not at $59.99 what do you think a good price point would be to have them flying off the shelves ?

Hmm...I have to confess: I'm not sure I get it. $60 is a lot for a plastic jug. Why would I want this over a better bottle at half the price (or a bucket at next to nothing)?

How big of a batch could that handle? Anything under 3 gallon and I think it might be a bit high.

I don't think that is something most brewers would purchase. I certainly wouldn't pay more than $15-20 for one. New brewers usually are looking to get into the hobby for cheap, and seasoned brewers typically have many fermenters. A $10 ale bucket seems to be perfect for me, I have ten of them.

There are too many people and proven science that shows a glass carboy can do just as good if not better. $60 sounds a bit high for a plastic jug. Although the wide mouth is appealing overall ill stick with my glass carboy anyday.

Or $10 for a BB or a Vintage Shop from Craigslist, used.
I found that these PET 'boys are easy to scrub with a Kleenex pad on the end of a Swiffer wand. (Terlit bowl cleaner)
Actually, the price is justified. Polycarbonate is EXPENSIVE. It is what eyeglass lenses and fighter aircraft canopies are made of. Overkill?
It gets worse: Polycarbonate plastic has a bad rep for releasing a supposedly-troublesome chemical called bisphenol A into the contents.
It has been blamed for causing an slow, insideous disgust for beer. Yes, I have had a few.

I wouldn't be interested in it at all. Buckets are bigger and cheaper, like 5 times cheaper. I bought my first kit (thru groupon from Midwest) for 65 buck with a recipe kit and $25 coupon for another recipe kit. I would think your market would be people just starting out or as gifts. Just doesn't seem practical to me as someone a little more seasoned but to the person starting out it might be nice.

For $60 I can get a really nice Speidel 30 liter fermenter with airlock, nice built in handles and a large opening to make dry hopping and other late additions a breeze.

THANKS for all the input.. I will try to make my argument.. and don't take anything as combative and I wont. I am looking for devils advocate. I sure don't want to wast my time and money if it wouldnt be worth it. (Thus the thread)

So.. let me address comments.

1) It would hold 30L (6-7 gal)

2) Unlike a bucket it has no chance of being scratched and causing infections.

3) Cleaning it requires no brushes so unlike BB it stands no chance of infection due to scratches.

4) Unlike a bucket you can see if fermentation is occurring without opening and exposing to risk of infection.

5) Requires a rag to clean, no brushes, no special anything. You can get down in there and clean it easily.

6) Unlike carboy has a spigot no need to siphon, just let gravity do the work (THeres a reason BB has a spigot)

7) Low profile, unlike carboy, bucket and BB its only 14" or so tall. Easily fits in Almost any frig.

8) Designed to fit in a sink almost perfectly, so cooling wort, cleaning, etc.. is easier.

9) MUCH cheaper than SS options (Although I love my SS caverns for secondary)

10) This would be great for the guy with limited room, a small kitchen, etc..

11) Same concept as Spiedel EXCEPT its clear to see thru. (BTW same price $60 and Volume at 30L). (My design would have inset handles.. its not identical to the above.. the above is an example of what I am thinking of)

12) Could go with a PET thats BPA free as opposed to a PolyCarb plastic.. I was thinking PC due to clarity and strength. THere is FDA grade PolyCard that does not release BPA.

OK that said.. $59.99 was a number.. ( I havent priced everything )

BB for 6 Gal goes for $29.. would you get this over a BB if it were priced the same or a few dollars more (Say $39) (Remember.. no need to buy brushes, bungs, etc.. )

Why wouldn't it scratch? Polycarbonate will generally scratch.

no

The harder polycarb (Like that used for safety glasses) is much more scratch resistant than most PET plastics. In either case, it wont get scratched like a BB even if made form the same PET or not. Simply due to the fact it only requires a soft rag and some star san to get in and clean it.

lumpher said:

no

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No at $59 or at $39..?

If it was made from the same PET as a better bottle why would yours be easier to clean and scratch impervious?

CDGoin said:

The harder polycarb (Like that used for safety glasses) is much more scratch resistant than most PET plastics. In either case, it wont get scratched like a BB even if made form the same PET or not. Simply due to the fact it only requires a soft rag and some star san to get in and clean it.

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Hmm...I never needed a brush back when I used better bottles. I've also scratched the hell out of more than one pair of safety glasses. At the end of the day, plastic is plastic for me. I'd have a hard time spending more than commodity prices on it. Good luck anyway!

Sorry, I have to join the "no" crowd as well. I would stick to my BB's. I haven't even needed a cloth to clean them, just shake and rinse.

BTW.. as I said my design is a bit different.. this is a ROUGH draft.. of the design.. Note the corner cut in the bottom.. that's where the spigot would go so as to not interfere and stick out when in the sink.



The overall edges would be smoother, and there would be inset handles in the body.

1) Lets for the moment just consider this would be the same material as the Better Bottles. To get that out of the way.

2) Cleaning would take literally less than a minute from dumping the old trub out to using it again.

3) Price point of $34.99 retail

BB = $29
Brush = $5
Bungs = a few bucks etc..

So total cost would be about the same.. would that change anyones opinion..?

BTW BB with racking adapter and spout is $60..

This would have a standard spout for 1/2" hose.. and at $39 be cheaper

It's cool that you're thinking like this, and trying to contribute to the home brewing hobby, but I just can't quite bring myself to encourage you in this particular endeavor. It's going to be really expensive going into production with something like this, and it seems that the general feedback you're getting is that brewers aren't interested in these.

Thanks for all the input BTW.. I know it would be easier for me to just look for more old Mr Beer fermenters.. and probably in the end what I may do. Just figured if there is a market for something like this.. nothing is better than turning hobby into career.

bottlebomber said:

It's cool that you're thinking like this, and trying to contribute to the home brewing hobby, but I just can't quite bring myself to encourage you in this particular endeavor. It's going to be really expensive going into production with something like this, and it seems that the general feedback you're getting is that brewers aren't interested in these.

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Thanks.. I have to take every piece of advice and suggestion as that of devils advocate. There will always be people in any hobby that are either cheap/frugal/cost concious.. and wont see value in something like this.

There are others that may see where I am coming from and give me ideas to improve.

I am also thinking as a growing market and a growing hobby there maybe room for my product. I personally find Carboys to be a PIA.. heavy and cumbersome. The plastic carboys and buckets from some of the less expensive kits have also caused problems, or for the beginner don't allow them to see the process so they freak out (See "Post your infection" thread.. most post are from new brewers that have buckets and when they open them up they freak out at a Krausen).

So if a "mildly" premium product that made it easier to get into the hobby or made it easier for those just getting started. Maybe it would be worth it. It would be a matter of marketing it correctly.

Nothing so far has detracted me from thinking other-words. That said, many of the comments have made me rethink certain aspects (PC vs PET). Hopefully I can get more input, and once I start getting quotes for the final product.. I will know wither or not to proceed.

I mean there are many more options that the forementioned, Carboys/Better Bottles/Buckets.. there are the conical fermentors, Stainless Steel Caverns, 30L Speidel fermentors, etc.. that are more expensive that my design. So obviously there are other markets than those more veteran brewers here on the forums

Hmm.. Thought once I answered some initial questions and changed the price target I would get more feedback.

CDGoin said:

Hmm.. Thought once I answered some initial questions and changed the price target I would get more feedback.

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Unfortunately, you're trying to compete in a market of things that are nearly free. If you want to change a premium above that, you'll need pretty compelling pitch. It's hard to beat cheap n' simple.

MalFet said:

Unfortunately, you're trying to compete in a market of things that are nearly free. If you want to change a premium above that, you'll need pretty compelling pitch. It's hard to beat cheap n' simple.

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To the seasoned brewer or economy brewer yes.. but for your hypothesis to be right there wouldn't be people buying and selling the following :

Carboys - $37.99 (Not including bungs, vents, cleaning utensils, etc..)

Plastic PET Carboy - $25.50

Better Bottle - $29 (Not including the same things)

Better Bottle with racking adapter and spigot - $69

Spiedel plastic tanks - $48

Stainless Steel Caverns - $130

So.. I think from a purely market analysis point of view $39-$49 would be reasonable. Overall it would be the same cost as a Carboy (with all the bits needed to start fermenting) or the Spiedel. As my kit would include the vent, and spout, etc.. and all you have to do is put in the wort to start fermenting.

As for simple, the design is the same idea as any other fermentor. In some cases makes things easier for the home brewer. Handles on the sides to lift it up and out of the sink, same size as a basic sink, and shorter to make it easy to get the sink faucet over the opening to clean. NOTHING is simpler that some iodine in the water slosh it around and reach in and wipe it clean with a dish rag. It's much simpler than getting out brushes, and tampons on a stick, etc.. to clean inside a carboy. To be honest, its the clear see-thru ability, combined with the ease of cleaning, and overall simplicity that makes me like my Vintage MR Beer fermentor so much.

So I guess the real question is.. (and try to put yourself in the place of someone that doesn't go and get 5 Gal paint buckets from the back of a Sherwin-Williams and clean them up for repurposing as fermentors)

If you were in the market and your choices were:

The above options and my design ( Made in FDA grade BPA Free PET plastic )

Would mine be competitive..?

Is it unique enough for the average and new homebrewer that is doing only one or two batches in the home..?

Would it be marketable over Carboys and the like, if being purchased as a gift, due to it's simplicity and ease of use and cleaning ? If the price was in the same area as any other kits that are currently for sale.

CDGoin said:

Would mine be competitive..?

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Not for me, at least not as you've described it here. Perhaps there are others who would like it. Good luck!

CDGoin said:

To the seasoned brewer or economy brewer yes.. but for your hypothesis to be right there wouldn't be people buying and selling the following :

Carboys - $37.99 (Not including bungs, vents, cleaning utensils, etc..)

Plastic PET Carboy - $25.50

Better Bottle - $29 (Not including the same things)

Better Bottle with racking adapter and spigot - $69

Spiedel plastic tanks - $48

Stainless Steel Caverns - $130

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I personally wouldn't purchase any of those items at that price. Northern Brewer frequently sells BBs at BOGO. Personally I use mostly buckets, but the 6 or 7 carboys I own were all purchased for $10-20. I don't mean to sound like a jerk, but it sounds like you're trying to argue us into approving your product idea. If you are actually considering this as a commercial enterprise, that is a dangerous attitude for you to have. My target attitude should be "Hell yes I'll buy that!". Check this thread out for a recent home brewing success story.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/new-way-control-pellet-hop-gunk-352293/
The seller actually had to start a vendor account because his product was successful enough with no advertising that is started a commotion on the forum. That's the kind of response you want to be seeing.

I don't think your characterization of buckets is fair...ale pale is about $15 with the lid so not free but not paint bucket either.

Might get some traction if you can make it 7 gal or even slightly bigger. Also how about an accessory conical lid that ends in a fitting for a blow off tube...

I want a royalty on the blow off lid

Sorry don't mean to be argumentative.. just some of the responses were off base with what I was trying to get too.

That said, I THINK I now see what people are missing..

This is NOT a 2-3 Gallon MR BEER Things like they sell now. This would be like their vintage one sold in the early 90s' and it would hold upwards of 25 L to the top, at minimum holds 6 Gals comfortably with room to spare. You can see the Gallon marks on the first picture.





* The blow off tube was because this RIS was going NUTS.. and blowing off the vent (Which I Used to connect a hose to as a blow off tube)

My design is the a little shorter, and a little squarer and would have indents for handles and the spout will not stick out from the side but a corner formed at the base so the spout can exist within the shape of the fermenter so the spout doesn't get in the way in the sink. (See previous sketch)

bottlebomber said:

Check this thread out for a recent home brewing success story.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/new-way-control-pellet-hop-gunk-352293/
The seller actually had to start a vendor account because his product was successful enough with no advertising that is started a commotion on the forum. That's the kind of response you want to be seeing.

Click to expand...

Exactly.. unfortunately unlike that guy, I don't have something to show what I want to produce 100% accurately AND it would seem I wasn't clear in a few items.

Almost like I should delete this thread, reformat with all that was clarified here and start over

I think you have a compelling argument and possibly a good product.

Now breaking into an existing market and occupying a sizeable share in it requires careful marketing research, prototyping, piloting, advertising, distribution, plugging, and pricing. On top of that everyone in that process wants to make money.

I don't possess any BB or other PET fermentors, and admit to know very little about this whole industry. Yet, I dare to say that a (plastic) BB carboy costs $1 to fabricate and the remainder of its retail price goes to getting the product to the consumer, including "perceived value" markup, which maybe very substantial, since it's only a plastic bottle after all. A PET container is not unlike the soda and water bottles that come free with their content and get discarded or recycled after use.

That said, I'm sure not the only who looked at the left-over PET containers after the nuts were consumed and wondered "what can I do with this, it is too nice to throw out."

CDGoin said:

...Almost like I should delete this thread, reformat with all that was clarified here and start over

Click to expand...

Isn't the thread meant to do some serious brainstorming and viability testing in a small dedicated community? Throwing the thread out is like censoring the process. Please don't.

You could add a recap instead, even to your OP. Or a link.

Your right and thats actually a great idea..

Because I think I need to clear up the OP.. because a lot wasn't clear I guess.

Like this is the overall design of what I am thinking..



Note: handle and spout locations.

I am working on a finished 3D model that would be even better for people to understand.

I think I started off on the wrong foot with a picture of the Mr Beer kit, so many assumed it was a 3 Gal thing or something like that. So I think editing the OP would be a good place to start.

As for costs.. currently two quotes I have are around $30K each for 3D printed prototype and the Injection mold. I have even floated the idea, design and such to a couple of LBHS and they all said they would carry it. But as you mentioned, the costs of getting it to every store would be such I would have to sell nationally to get the volume I would need, that costs more than probably even the molds or prototype, so selling them via Amazon would be an option, but not sure the volume would be there to justify it.

It would have to be something a lot of people would want, or at least stores. I can see a "kit" being sold at non-LBHS retailers during the holiday season and such. Again though that requires a lot in marketing and promotion.

Now I think if the original Mr Beer molds could be used then that would make this a no brainer.

Unfortunately the people that made the one I use now are no longer around (that I could find) and the people that run Mr Beer now are different than the ones that ran it then or at least that has been my experience when I called to try to find out any info on the vintage one.

To be perfectly honest, this seems to marry the benefits of a bucket (ease and speed of cleaning) with those of a better bottle (transparent fermenter that's lighter than a glass carboy).

I'm among the many folks who are highly suspicious of fermenters that include spigots - so BB's equipped with such, or your device, wouldn't be a consideration for me. Too much of a vector for infection, too easy to pull trub if you've got an especially thick yeast cake, just to name a couple of concerns.

As to a couple of your initial benefits over better bottles - I've never taken a brush to mine, and never had an issue. Granted, I've never been able to empty it, clean it, and immediately re-use it, but rarely has that ever been a problem for me. Maybe I'm not your target market...

Your OP is fine as it sets the scenario. Your new design is based on that model.

There are big differences. No-one ever bought a Mr. Beer bottle. They came with the kit. The kit held (and still holds) the promise to make your own beer.

You are trying to sell an improved fermentor, directly competing with BB.

Do you need a 3D print? $30k for that sounds excessive. The injection mold could be pricey, but 30k sounds very high too. Not sure what's involved. You would need to manufacture and sell 3-5k bottles to break even on that investment alone.

I agree with the spigot being an acquired taste and may be best implemented as an option. Good sanitation is needed for those who use them, which is easy with the easy access through the wide top opening. Like stratslinger said, a bucket and clear fermentor in one.

I'm in the market to obtain some new fermentors in the near future. I'm using glass carboys now and possibly want to steer away from them for use as primaries.

Here comes the question:
Given the choices in the below $50 price range, would I buy yours or something else?

I hate to spend $30+ on a plastic "bottle" that is hard to clean and easily scratched (BB). For $15 or less I can get a simple 6 1/2 gal bucket with lid. If scratched it will be reused as a grain container or rinsing bucket for years to come. It will outlive me eventually. Or should I get your cube?

You're trying to hard and getting way to complex with it. You have solutions for both the problems that you are trying to fix (clear plastic = PET) and easy to clean = bucket. Why not get out of this idea of thinking you have to reinvent the wheel and just make a clear bucket! Incredibly cheap, easy to clean, and I am sure you can get the initial manufacturing costs way down.

You probably could have the cost down to around 20$, and have something that is, easy to store multiples of (stacking buckets together kicks ass), doesn't have funky geometry, so manufacturing costs would be cheaper. Make them wider to take height away from it if you are worrying about the height. Or include a sink hose attachment in one for say a 25$ package to get people buying them.

I will take 10% of your profits for my amazing idea :-D

I think you are on to a good idea but aiming too low.

You have highlighted benefits over other fermenters, so charge more for those features - ask $79 for it. Afterall its a 'premium' product.

People on this forum are not your target market segment. They know too much and many are set in their ways. You should pitch this product at the affluent new guy who has the money to spend and wants to get into HB as a hobby.

At the end of the day it is how you market the product that will decide your success. Pitch this as a premium fermentor and highlight the benefits over alternatives on the packaging. Design the packaging well (ie. logo, fonts, artwork). Pick a good name for the product and trademark it to protect your IP.

Think of offering the product as part starter set up for the new brewer with basic ingredients for a first brew.

Make sure you include well-crafted instructions for use. Don't stuff this up - good instructions can sell a product. Think of a DVD to include as well, or put a video up on You-Tube. Be professional about it, don't put up some some crappy video that looks unprofessional and makes your product and you look bad. Slick is the word.

And think about getting it sold in places other than LHBS eg. hardware stores, shopping malls (rent a stand and do demos). Advertise in low cost but targeted local publications (gun/car/bike club mags etc). And don't forget the ladies either - if they don't buy for themselves they do buy such things for hubby, boyfriend etc. (bless their hearts)

Good luck. Go for it.

Couchy said:

People on this forum are not your target market segment. They know too much and many are set in their ways. You should pitch this product at the affluent new guy who has the money to spend and wants to get into HB as a hobby.

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So he should target ignorant noobs with money? In that case, why not make it $179? It is a premium product, after all.

I like the wide mouth and spout. But instead of sizing it for a sink, why not make two pieces? One for the chamber, and have a coiled tubing sleeve for cooling the wort?

What I like about this is that it's short and has the potential of fitting into my fridge.

I live in a small apartment and have no way of lagering and I hate it.

IMO it might be beneficial to make it a little shorter and fatter, and put more emphasis on fitting it a household refrigerator.

...but that's just my .02