My Second All-grain (BIAB); hold my hand

My first all-grain, BIAB, was a fail. A very minor fail but a fail none the less. My O.G. was 1.034 which was far short of the targetted 1.057. I'll get some thirst quenching light-weight beer out of it and that's good. But it wasn't a success.

So here's how I'm going to do my second attempt. I'm I doing it right?

1. Calculate pre-boil size, strike water volume and sparge water volume.

I want a final post-boil batch of 2 gallons. I boiled water in my pot for an hour yesterday and noticed I lost about 3/4 gallon (more or less) so I figure my pre-boil size should be 11 quarts. I have 3 lbs 1 oz of grain so I figure they will retain about 1 1/2 quars of water. So I should strike and sparge with 3 gallons and 1 pint of water.

Using Yooper's 2 quart per lb of grain I'll strike with 6 quarts and sparge with 6 1/2 quarts. Yooper's 2-1 rule seems higher than most things I've read but intuitively it makes sense that the more water I use the more sugar I can shake out.

2. Strike up the mash.

I'll heat 6 quarts of water to 165. I'll put the 5 gallon paint strainer bag over the pot and into the water and pour in the grains. I'll measure the tempature and adjust the heat to get it to 152.

Now I've been advised to keep the stockpot in my oven set to warm. I think I'll leave it on my gas burner on low (simmer) and keep the temperature that way. It just seems easier to deal with. I did have trouble maintaining a low temperature last time but then I only had 2 quarts of water and I think it'll be easier with 6 quarts. (If not I can still pop it in the oven). I think I'll use my 2 1/2 gallon stockpot for this. Is too small to do the 2 gallon boil so a bought a rather cheap and shoddy 16 quart stockpot but I think I'll use that just for the boil. For the strike and the sparge I'll use my 8 and 10 quart stockpots. They have a smaller base area and are also therefore deeper and I think they will maintain heat better.

I'll stir every 10 minutes and maintain 152 degrees for an hour. I'll get a collendar and place the grains over the stockpot and squeeze 'em out.

3. Sparge

I'll heat up 6 1/2 quarts in the second stockpot to 170. I think I'll use the dunk and squeeze method with the bag to sparge rather than the pouring the water over the grains method. This just seems easier to manage and it seems I'll be able to squeeze more sugar out. I've heard this referred to as "batch sparging" but I've also heard batch sparging refering to something else altogether so I don't know the proper term.

4. Measure and measure.

I'll combine the runnings and measure the volume. I'll cool off a few ounces and take a hydrometer reading. From this I'll estimate the post-boil Original Gravity by the formula

Gravity(post-boil) = Gravity(pre-boil) * Volume(pre-boil)/Volume(post-boil)

If that is within .005 of my target O.G. I'll be happy. If not I'll plan on upping my wort with DME.

5. Boil and make my wort and chill

6. Here I'm a little unsure what I want to do. I probably should measure how much volume my post boil is. But I kind of don't want to deal with sanitizing measuring containers and dealing with air exposure and I'm hoping I'll be able to eye-ball between the markings on my fermenter and markings I made on my stockpot if it's within a quart or so of 2 gallons.

If I'm not within a quart of two gallons, well, I'll leave it at that. I'm not supposed to top off if I'm low but I'm not sure why not.

7. When cool take a hydrometer reading. If I'm lower than my target O.G. I'll adjust by adding DME. Using this calculator I figure for a two gallon batch, for each .005 points I'm under I add .23 lbs of DME.

But I'm not really sure how to add it. After the hydrometer reading my wort will be cool, so I figure I'll mix it with a cup of boiling water and add it. Or, as supposedly by step 4, I would have calculated beforehand I'd be low I could just add it at flameout. I'm inclined to the former because ... well, I don't nescessarily know what my post-boil volume will be, and I'd prefer the data of the actual post-boil O.G. before jumping to conclusions.

8. Pitch yeast and be done.

Am I more or less doing this right.

It seems to me that you are making this way complicated. If you have a 16 quart pot, for a 2 gallon batch, you should be able to do a complete BIAB. Meaning, you mash in the 16qt pot with your full volume of water, mash for 60 minutes, pull out the bag and let it drain, squeeze out a little extra wort and then boil away like you normally would. No need for a sparge with another kettle and more water. Plugging your equipment and grain bill into Beersmith, I get that you would mash with about 13.3qt of water which should fit in your pot with the 3lb 1oz of grain. Heat your water to 164F, add your bag and grain, cover and wrap it in some towels or blankets. It should hold the temp pretty well for 60 minutes with out needing the oven. After 60 minutes, pull the bag, drain well, squeeze and go along with the boil. Your pre-boil volume should be about 3.1 gallons with a pre-boil gravity of 1.030, after 60 mins with your .75 boil off, you should have about 2.25 gallons of 1.041 wort of which you should get 2 gallons into fermenter. No need to sparge, I think that just needlessly complicates things.

If you haven't yet, take a look at this BIAB thread, it really is the simplest way to accomplish AG. Your equipment may differ, but the steps are same for a small batch and even easier.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/biab-brewing-pics-233289/

Well, folks told me putting it in the oven was less complicated than finding towels and blankets. Frankly both seem...not complicated but awkward. I'd rather leave it on a burner on simmer (but that might be too much heat on the bottom and not enough insulation on the side). Honestly a warm oven on warm seem easier than blankets. This crappy stockpot *does* have very thin poorly insulated sides.

Sparging... well, I'm just doing what I read. Frankly leaving them in the *all* the water and dunking and squeezing them always *did* make a lot more sense to me.


I'm concerned about getting a pre-boil gravity. I didn't get it last time. I didn't even really come close. Well, maybe it wasn't as bad as I thought, but 1.034 versus 1.057 makes you paranoid.

FWIW the recipe is the Lady Liberty from this page. 2 gallon target 0.G. of 1.045. 2.8 lbs 2-row and .2 lbs of Crystal 60. (3 lbs. not 3.1 lbs. My bad. Very negligiable bad)

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My calculations (without beer smith) post-boil: 2.25 gallons at 1.045 = (2.25 * 45 = 101.25) => pre boil: 3 gallons at 1.034 (3 * 34 = 102 =~ 101.25)

Add 1.3 quarts for absorbtion and I get 13.3 quarts. Cool?

I didn't mean to make it sound complicated.

So what if I *don't* make pre-boil gravity of 1.034?

And what if I'm *way* off on my boil-off predictions?


And if I overboil. (e.g. my post boil is 1.5 gallons) why *don't* I top off? I mean if I did make my pre-boil gravity of 1.034 at 3 gallons, then my post-boil at 1.5 would be 1.068 so wouldn't I *want* to top off to 2.25 and 1.45?

woozy said:

Well, folks told me putting it in the oven was less complicated than finding towels and blankets. Frankly both seem...not complicated but awkward. I'd rather leave it on a burner on simmer (but that might be too much heat on the bottom and not enough insulation on the side). Honestly a warm oven on warm seem easier than blankets. This crappy stockpot *does* have very thin poorly insulated sides.

Sparging... well, I'm just doing what I read. Frankly leaving them in the *all* the water and dunking and squeezing them always *did* make a lot more sense to me.

Click to expand...

I've done both the oven and the blankets (not together ). Pretty simple, at least I'd say easier than trying to stir and direct fire during the whole mash. I'd be worried about the bag on the bottom of the pot.

In your other thread I think folks were telling you to use the second pot to sparge in because you didn't have a big enough pot to do the whole volume and you ended up topping off with plain water. If you've got the big pot now I agree, it would be easier to do a full volume BIAB.

If you over boil you can top off, and you're right it will bring you back to the correct gravity if your pre-boil measurement was correct. The not topping off was if you are already at a low gravity due to bad efficiency like your first batch, topping off just dilutes it more.

chickypad said:

I've done both the oven and the blankets. Pretty simple, at least I'd say easier than trying to stir and direct fire during the whole mash. I'd be worried about the bag on the bottom of the pot.

Click to expand...

Actually, as I sit and think about it, the biggest problem with a burner is that the heat just wouldn't be even.

I think I'll do oven because... well, a warm oven *has* warmth whereas blankets only retain warmth... and ... well, blankets don't belong near a stove.

In your other thread I think folks were telling you to use the second pot to sparge in because you didn't have a big enough pot to do the whole volume and you ended up topping off with plain water. If you've got the big pot now I agree, it would be easier to do a full volume BIAB.

Click to expand...

Last time I was doing a *one* gallon. I didn't end up topping off because of the pot size; I ended up topping off because my boil off was bigger than expected. Although it shouldn't have been. Following the directions I was given, I mashed-in with 1/2 gallon water and 1.8 lbs grain. Sparged and recirculated with another gallon. 1 1/2 gallon less grain absorbtion boiling for any hour led to a lot more the 1 quart boil off.

I didn't measure pre-boil gravity, pre-boil volume, nor did I measure post-boil volume (probably about 1 1/2 gallons) and my gravity was measured after honey and candi was added.

chickypad said:

If you over boil you can top off, and you're right it will bring you back to the correct gravity if your pre-boil measurement was correct. The not topping off was if you are already at a low gravity due to bad efficiency like your first batch, topping off just dilutes it more.

Click to expand...

So basically, my real goal is to try like heck to get 1.034 with 3 gallon pre-boil. Combine mash-in and sparging. Just get them grain sugars by any means nescessary.

Assume 3/4 gallon evaporation. If more top off. If less ... well, that's the way the cookie crumbles.

(I assume that with hops I do *not* want to just keep boiling until I get to 2 gallons; once I put the first bittering hop in I'm committed to finishing that boil in an hour.)

(Hypothetically, if I'm unsure of the boil-off could I shoot low and boil for 1/2 hour before adding the first hop? Thus I'm forcing more and extra half-hour of boil off. If I over boil then I top off?)

(If my water had 3/4 boil-off will my wort, being thicker, have the same? Actually it'd have less wouldn't it. Maybe I *should* boil for a 1/2 hour before the first hop just to make sure...)

(No, 3/4 gallon for an hour boil seems a reasonable boil off, doesn't it?)

(The problem is a I simply don't have any experience to base these judgement calls on. Had I known this was so important with all-grain I would have measured with my extract that always had huge boil-off... but those were all with my old 10 quart stockpot... my new stockpot is bigger so it should have more... right?)

If you have access to a smart phone or PC, I would recommend finding a brew calculator that you can use, it makes all this figuring much easier. Another great resource is 'Designing Great Beers" by Ray Daniels, it has a chapter that is all about hitting your target gravity and how calculate and make corrections. But here is how it usually goes for me.

I plug in a mash efficiency, usually around 80% for my system. That dictates how much grain you will need to hit your target gravity at a particular pre-boil volume.

You are looking for a pre-boil gravity of 1.034 with a pre-boil volume of about 3 gallons.

After you mash, measure your gravity and pre-boil volume. Depending on what you come up with, you have several options.

1...your numbers are spot on and you boil away happily on schedule
2...you have a low gravity, but higher volume...boil longer on the front end before
adding your hops, once you add your first hops charge you continue as normal
3...you have low gravity, but your volume is correct....add DME to compensate and
boil normally
4...you have low gravity and volume...add DME and water and boil normally
5...you have high gravity/high volume...make a larger volume of stronger beer (you
may want to add more hops to compensate)
6...high gravity/low volume....add water get correct volume and/or gravity


I'm sure I missed a couple of scenarios but you get the idea, if you get a refractometer down the line, it makes measuring gravity on the fly pretty quick and easy and you can correct as you go through the process. For volumes, I would take your boil/mash kettle and a short piece of CPVC and make a calibrated dipstick...add water incrementally and dip in your pvc and make marks with a permanent marker.

Problems are: I don't have any idea what my efficiency is. I don't know what my boil off is (hence I don't know whether 3 gallons is the correct pre-volume).

I'm going to have to assume my efficiency will be normal. Last time it was 45.1% but ... screw that noise.


I think my boil off will be 3/4 gallon but I don't *know*. If my boil-off turns out to be more than 3/4 of a gallon, I can top off.

But if my boil-off is (significantly) less than 3/4 of a gallon I am screwed with too much low gravity hopped-wort.

So I am thinking that for *this* first (second) time simply boiling for an extra half hour before adding hops and then topping off. You can think of this a deliberately planning to accidentally have the boil-off be greater than expected. Then I'll know my actual boil-off for later.

"I plug in a mash efficiency, usually around 80% for my system. That dictates how much grain you will need to hit your target gravity at a particular pre-boil volume."

Can't find *any* calculator that does *that*! All the ones I find, ask you how much grain and efficiency and tell you gravity you are going to hit.

I think we're making it too complicated.

The recipe says x amount of grain for 5 gallons. So I want to do 2/5 x for 2 gallons. The recipe says that will result in N as O.G. (This means the recipe assumes I'll have such and such efficiency and I can plug this into a calculator to figure out just what such and such is, but I'll just assume that I'll reach that amount.) I'll measure my results to see if I make it.


Did realize today though, that a 2 gallon batch has 2/5 the grain bill (I am right in assuming this, aren't I?) of a 5 gallon batch but has 1/2 the pre-boil water bill (is this what one spreadsheet program called "sparge run-off"?). I assume this is irrelevent; that mashing gets out y units of sugar out of so much grain and you'll mash out the same y units of sugar however much (extra) water you use (above a certain minimum, of course)?

Okay, I'm doin' it. (One day early but I got bored).

3 gallons and 1 1/2 quarts in a 16 quart stockpot. 165 degrees. Mesh bag. 3 lbs. of grain (2 lbs 13 oz American 2-row pale and 3 oz American Chrystal 60).

First and second thing I notice: Temp drops to 160. *not* 154. (Duh! 3 gallons of water is over twice as much as the usual mash so it doesn't cool as much.) (Double duh! I see the instructions for BIAB uses strike temp of 160 and not 165. Oh, well.)
2nd. with the grain it *totally* fills the stock pot.

Decide to put the stockpot in oven. I just *really* don't see my ability to balance blankets and stockpot. My tendency to get overwhelmed by little things being out of balance just makes this seem... not for me ... I mean my blankets are bulky and my stove top is small, my counter space has all sorts of little things to be knocked over and I'll just trip over it on the floor and ... no, it just isn't for me... Oven off for first 8 minutes. stock pot drops to 154. Stir. Oven on warm. It has now been 17 minutes and the mash is 155 degrees. Gonna give it a stir.

...more to come....

40 minutes into mash and holding steady at 154 degress. Yeah, warm oven is for me.

At one point around 42 minutes I took it out to stir and it got down to 150 but I took it out, put it over heat and stirred and got it back up. 8 minutes to go and its 153 degrees.

... more to come ....

mash-out. Took 11 minutes to heat up to 170. Dunked 4 or 5 times and squeezed the heck out of it. Recovered a *lot* more liquid than I expected. Don't really have a way to measure precisely but by my marking that I made on the stockpot about 13 quarts. (i.e. all but 1/2 quart!). Cooling a sample to do a hydrometer reading.

... more to come ...

I got 1.029 S.G at 80 deg which adjusts to 1.031 at 60 which a calculater says is 91% efficiency which I find hard to believe and optimistic so I'll go with just 1.029 which is 85% (or 79% if my volume is closer to 3 gallons than to 3 1/4. Boiling down to 2 1/4 should give me somewhere between 1.039 (if my volume is closer to 3) or 1.042 (if my volume is 3.25). Both are good. (But a little low if my efficiency really *is* as high as the calculator says???)

As I seem to have over 3 gallons I am worried my boil off will be low so I *will* boil for an extra half hour before starting the official 60 minute hopped boil. (or maybe I'll just boil until my volume seems to drop to 3 gallons.)

... more to come ...

Boil-off seems to be 1 quart every 20 minutes. I'm down to 3 gallon (more or less-- trusting my very crude markings I made with a grease pencil on the side of the pot) in 20 minutes. I'll let it boil another 20 minutes before I start hopping. That'll be more than I need but I think it will give me more precise data for determining my boil off rate, my initial volume, and my efficiency for future batches.

... more to come ...

Well. *fooey* and hurray.

Hurray because with an additional 40 minutes of boiling time (1:40 total), my final volume was *exactly* 2 gallons and 3 cups which is *exactly* the right size for my fermentor.

Fooey, cause my O.G. was 1.038 but that was at too high a temperature (my digital thermometer fell into my ice-water bath and is now broken. Took another reading after pitching yeast and got 1.042. Hmmm. By those numbers my pre-boil volume was roughly 3.2 gallons.

So with really *rough* number I get.

Volume Mash Water: 3.375 gallons
Pre-boil volume: 3.2 gallons
Absorbtion: .175 gallons =~ 1 cup /lb.
pre-boil gravity: 1.029
Efficiency: 84%
Boil-off rate: 3 quarts per hour

But those are rough. Lots of fudging. But consistent.

Next time: More grain; less water.




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