Firestone Walker Wookey Jack Clone Attempt

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TorribleBrew said:
Here was Matt's response:
"James
For the most part the recipe looks good – a few details to change…
-We start at 18P (not 1.080)and end at about 3.0P (well below 1.015-1.018)
-We use all Citra and Amarillo through out the brew with a large whirl pool addition (no magnum). I would back out some of the middle additions to allow for a nice big 50/50 Amarillo Citra whirl pool hit.
-You could add more rye if you like, we haven't gone there so I don't really have much to advice to give. We have never done a beta G rest on this beer but it might help if you are having run off issues.
-No Oak

Hope this helps
Matt"

The higher OG you guys are starting with could be a reason you are having a hard time getting down to the proper finishing gravities. Also, it seems FSW begins there fermentations at 62F and allows them to free rise to 66-67F after 24 hours of pitching yeast before doing a diacetyl rest in the lower 70s (69F -72F) when fermentation is complete.

I adjusted the recipe accordingly for my brew day last Thursday. OG - 1.071 and currently sitting at 1.012. I am beginning my dry hop regimen and diacetyl rest tonight when I get home.

:mug:
Click to expand...

Interesting stuff. Care to share your recipe? I look forward to more updates.
 
NWMushroom said:
Interesting stuff. Care to share your recipe? I look forward to more updates.
Click to expand...

Shroom,

I adjusted my recipe for a Rye Ipa comp so i upped the Rye to 18%, but still kept my OG at 1.072 and also followed his advice on the hop regimen.

Based off the information Matt gave, this is how I would adjust to clone Wookey; however, as always, YRMV.

Estimated Original Gravity: 18 Plato
Estimated Final Gravity: 3 Plato
Estimated Color: 45 SRM
Estimated Bitterness: 80 IBU (largest percentage from whirlpool addition)
Estimated Alcohol by Volume: 8.3 %

Mash @ 145 for 60 min
Increase to 155 for 10 min
Boil Time: 90 min

Malt Bill
81% Pale Malt
10% Rye Malt
3.0% Cara-Rye
3.0 % Special Carafa III
3.0 % Wheat (Midnight)

Hop Bill
90 min - 15.0 IBU Citra/Amarillo blend ~ .4oz total
30 min - 20.0 IBU Citra/Amarillo blend ~ 1oz total
30 min Flame out/whirlpool - 45 IBU Amarillo/Citra ~ 6.0oz total
Dry Hop #1 - 50/50 Amarillo/Citra - 3 days (remove hops and yeast) ~ 2oz total
Dry Hop #2 - 50/50 Amarillo/Citra - 4 days ~ 2oz total

Appropriate pitch of an English Ale yeast strain @ 17C
Free rise to 19C for fermentation after first 24hrs
Free rise for diacetyl rest to no more than 21C after fermentation is complete

Hope this helps and doesn't muddy up the water.

:mug:
 
Wow I'd like to hear how this comes out. Also curious about how the hops in the massive hop stand hold up over time. Not long aging, is this going to be god for days / weeks or months...
 
I plan on brewing this next weekend and I have a question about raising the mash from 145 to 155. I'm relatively new to AG so I've never done this before. I read some people actually poured the mash in the kettle raised to 155 and put back in the tun. I was planning on going with infusion. For those that chose that path what water/grain ratio did you use for the 145 mash? BeerSmith defaults to 1.25 but I was thing of going with 1 to help reach the second temp. Also, did anyone use rice hulls? Again, I have never used them but read that with wheat and rye it's a good idea.
 
Definitely use rice hulls. I collapsed my false bottom using my pump when I brewed this the first time without rice hulls. I also milled at .030
 
Amff said:
I plan on brewing this next weekend and I have a question about raising the mash from 145 to 155. I'm relatively new to AG so I've never done this before. I read some people actually poured the mash in the kettle raised to 155 and put back in the tun. I was planning on going with infusion. For those that chose that path what water/grain ratio did you use for the 145 mash? BeerSmith defaults to 1.25 but I was thing of going with 1 to help reach the second temp. Also, did anyone use rice hulls? Again, I have never used them but read that with wheat and rye it's a good idea.
Click to expand...

1.25 ratio will be fine for the 145, as it is the longer mash at 60 min. You will not need that much infusion water to raise the mash to 155 and besides some brewers think they get a little better conversion with a thinner mash anyways.

In regards to rice hulls, you shouldn't need them with this small a percentage of rye, but if it makes you feel better then use them.

:mug:
 
TorribleBrew said:
Shroom,

I adjusted my recipe for a Rye Ipa comp so i upped the Rye to 18%, but still kept my OG at 1.072 and also followed his advice on the hop regimen.

Based off the information Matt gave, this is how I would adjust to clone Wookey; however, as always, YRMV.

Estimated Original Gravity: 18 Plato
Estimated Final Gravity: 3 Plato
Estimated Color: 45 SRM
Estimated Bitterness: 80 IBU (largest percentage from whirlpool addition)
Estimated Alcohol by Volume: 8.3 %

Mash @ 145 for 60 min
Increase to 155 for 10 min
Boil Time: 90 min

Malt Bill
81% Pale Malt
10% Rye Malt
3.0% Cara-Rye
3.0 % Special Carafa III
3.0 % Wheat (Midnight)

Hop Bill
90 min - 15.0 IBU Citra/Amarillo blend ~ .4oz total
30 min - 20.0 IBU Citra/Amarillo blend ~ 1oz total
30 min Flame out/whirlpool - 45 IBU Amarillo/Citra ~ 6.0oz total
Dry Hop #1 - 50/50 Amarillo/Citra - 3 days (remove hops and yeast) ~ 2oz total
Dry Hop #2 - 50/50 Amarillo/Citra - 4 days ~ 2oz total

Appropriate pitch of an English Ale yeast strain @ 17C
Free rise to 19C for fermentation after first 24hrs
Free rise for diacetyl rest to no more than 21C after fermentation is complete

Hope this helps and doesn't muddy up the water.

:mug:
Click to expand...

I'm somewhat confused. I normally refer to flameout as when I shut the flame off and add the hops...Then I immediately start pumping through my chiller.

Does the 30 minute flameout/whirlpool mean that we do the entire boil, kill heat and add hops and then steep an additional 30 minutes prior to chilling? I'm specifically referring to the 45 IBU Amarillo/Citra ~ 6.0oz total addition. Any help would be appreciated.
 
Just brewed this, it looks more brown than black. I used London ale yeast.
 
I had used carafa II the second time I brewed this and it came out brown. The lhbs was out of carafa III. Makes no difference to me though. I love this beer.
 
Vigo_Carpathian said:
I had used carafa II the second time I brewed this and it came out brown. The lhbs was out of carafa III. Makes no difference to me though. I love this beer.
Click to expand...

I might have accidentally done this.... I wonder if I should worry...nah
 
My goodness...I just tasted this between the 2 dry hop charges, and by what I can taste...this is a dead-on clone. Delicious....Great work on the development!
:mug:
 
Very close to wookey jack. Great beer. Great color,taste, great hop smell.

ForumRunner_20130524_201857.jpg
 
So I had this beer for the first time tonight, and wow. friggin delicious. My question about the clone is, they all come up short, (according to my calculator anyway) on abv and IBU's. For example, the original recipe on page 1 of this thread comes up as having a abv of 7.4%, and 59 IBU's, well short of the 8.3%, 80IBU real Wookey Jack. What gives?

I built a 3 gal BIAB recipe for this, and adjusted a lot of the grain and hops bill to match the specs of the real wookey jack, and this is what I came up with-

8lb 2 row
1.5lb rye
6oz cararye
6oz midnight wheat
4oz carafa III

.5oz magnum @ 90 min
.75oz Amaraillo @ 25 min
.75oz citra @ 25 min
1oz amarillo @ 1 FO
1oz Citra @ FO
.5 oz citra, amarillo 3 days,
.5oz citra, amarillo 4 days.

White Labs WLP002

1.094 OG-1.031FG, 8.3%
79IBU's
44SRM.

Would this work?
 
jason91notch said:
So I had this beer for the first time tonight, and wow. friggin delicious. My question about the clone is, they all come up short, (according to my calculator anyway) on abv and IBU's. For example, the original recipe on page 1 of this thread comes up as having a abv of 7.4%, and 59 IBU's, well short of the 8.3%, 80IBU real Wookey Jack. What gives?

I built a 3 gal BIAB recipe for this, and adjusted a lot of the grain and hops bill to match the specs of the real wookey jack, and this is what I came up with-

8lb 2 row
1.5lb rye
6oz cararye
6oz midnight wheat
4oz carafa III

.5oz magnum @ 90 min
.75oz Amaraillo @ 25 min
.75oz citra @ 25 min
1oz amarillo @ 1 FO
1oz Citra @ FO
.5 oz citra, amarillo 3 days,
.5oz citra, amarillo 4 days.

White Labs WLP002

1.094 OG-1.031FG, 8.3%
79IBU's
44SRM.

Would this work?
Click to expand...

The gravities from your recipe (OG/FG) are too high. The beer will either finish with a way higher abv or too sweet. Check your calculations again and make sure you have a reasonable final gravity around 1.016.
 
jason91notch said:
So I had this beer for the first time tonight, and wow. friggin delicious. My question about the clone is, they all come up short, (according to my calculator anyway) on abv and IBU's. For example, the original recipe on page 1 of this thread comes up as having a abv of 7.4%, and 59 IBU's, well short of the 8.3%, 80IBU real Wookey Jack. What gives?

I built a 3 gal BIAB recipe for this, and adjusted a lot of the grain and hops bill to match the specs of the real wookey jack, and this is what I came up with-

8lb 2 row
1.5lb rye
6oz cararye
6oz midnight wheat
4oz carafa III

.5oz magnum @ 90 min
.75oz Amaraillo @ 25 min
.75oz citra @ 25 min
1oz amarillo @ 1 FO
1oz Citra @ FO
.5 oz citra, amarillo 3 days,
.5oz citra, amarillo 4 days.

White Labs WLP002

1.094 OG-1.031FG, 8.3%
79IBU's
44SRM.

Would this work?
Click to expand...

1.080-1.015= 8.6% ABV. http://dd26943.com/davesdreaded/tools/convert.htm
 
My calculator had WLP002 only attenuating at 63%. I bumped it up to 72%, (which is 2% over what White Labs has it attenuating to) and that helped, but it still has me well short of 1.080-1.016.

To go from 1.080 to 1.016 is 80% attenuation, but White labs says WLP002 attenuates 63-70%. If I substitute WLP002 for something that attenuates higher, like WLP007, I can get there. Am I going about this wrong?
 
wow, now Im really confused. According to the calculator that SkeezerPleezer posted, 1.080-1.016 is 63% attenuation. When building the recipe on brewers friend, I need to enter 80% attenuation to get to the same results. I don't get it.
 
(80-16) / 80 = 0.8, or 80% apparent attenuation.

Attenuation is partially dependent on yeast strain, but also on fermentability of the wort. I've brewed this one 3 times now, and if you follow the recipe and mash schedule, a healthy fermentation with WLP002 will get you down to 1.016, I promise.
 
ipsiad said:
(80-16) / 80 = 0.8, or 80% apparent attenuation.

Attenuation is partially dependent on yeast strain, but also on fermentability of the wort. I've brewed this one 3 times now, and if you follow the recipe and mash schedule, a healthy fermentation with WLP002 will get you down to 1.016, I promise.
Click to expand...

+1 I've had the same results. You will hit the numbers.
 
WLP002 isn't known to attenuate well, but if you pitch the right amount of healthy yeast, give it some oxygen, and mash low (per the schedule) it will do it.
 
sybesbrew said:
+1 I've had the same results. You will hit the numbers.
Click to expand...

Im not doubting you, I just wish I knew how to adjust for that discrepancy. Especially when trying to design my own recipes.
If recipe builders such as Brewers Friend are putting that recipe at 7.4%abv with 65% attenuation, but in reality its finishing around 8.5%, how in the heck does one make a reliable recipe and know how its going to end up?
 
jason91notch said:
Im not doubting you, I just wish I knew how to adjust for that discrepancy. Especially when trying to design my own recipes.
If recipe builders such as Brewers Friend are putting that recipe at 7.4%abv with 65% attenuation, but in reality its finishing around 8.5%, how in the heck does one make a reliable recipe and know how its going to end up?
Click to expand...

Are you sure it is ABV and not ABW?
 
jason91notch said:
Im not doubting you, I just wish I knew how to adjust for that discrepancy. Especially when trying to design my own recipes.
If recipe builders such as Brewers Friend are putting that recipe at 7.4%abv with 65% attenuation, but in reality its finishing around 8.5%, how in the heck does one make a reliable recipe and know how its going to end up?
Click to expand...

To fix it in Brewers Friend you just have to set the attenuation to 80% with the custom attenuation option. I don't think it has the ability to predict FG based on changes in mash schedule (not sure if any software out there does).

As for writing reliable recipes, it's difficult to predict precisely how a beer will ferment by recipe alone, because there are so many factors that go into it (some of which are unknown). I wouldn't have predicted, for example, that WLP002 would ferment this recipe down so low, but it does. Formulas used by brewing software will give you a ballpark figure, but they won't always hit the exact numbers. Experience and empirical data (either your own or from others) will get you the rest of the way.
 
ipsiad said:
To fix it in Brewers Friend you just have to set the attenuation to 80% with the custom attenuation option. I don't think it has the ability to predict FG based on changes in mash schedule (not sure if any software out there does).

As for writing reliable recipes, it's difficult to predict precisely how a beer will ferment by recipe alone, because there are so many factors that go into it (some of which are unknown). I wouldn't have predicted, for example, that WLP002 would ferment this recipe down so low, but it does. Formulas used by brewing software will give you a ballpark figure, but they won't always hit the exact numbers. Experience and empirical data (either your own or from others) will get you the rest of the way.
Click to expand...

Yeah, setting the attenuation to 80% is how I fixed it in my personal recipe, and I agree that there are so many factors throughout the brewing process to nail down an exact outcome every time. That being said, if scores of people are attenuating WLP002 to 80%, then maybe White Labs should update their rating for that yeast. Getting 15% more attenuation out of a yeast than advertised can, as we have discovered here, lead to a completely different beer than you were shooting for.
 
jason91notch said:
So I had this beer for the first time tonight, and wow. friggin delicious. My question about the clone is, they all come up short, (according to my calculator anyway) on abv and IBU's. For example, the original recipe on page 1 of this thread comes up as having a abv of 7.4%, and 59 IBU's, well short of the 8.3%, 80IBU real Wookey Jack. What gives?
Click to expand...

Hey Jason,

I don't think anyone has addressed your question about IBUs. Matt at Firestone is getting a large portion of his IBUs from the whirlpool addition. In this addition you are still getting isomerizaiton of the alpha acids albeit at a lesser rate. With a large whirlpool addition you are getting massive aroma with significant bittering if you use enough hops. However, most homebrew software do not account for the actual bittering that is going on, especially in a long 30 minute whirlpool. In response to my email to Matt at Firestone (reference page 24 of this thread), he said you should probably decrease the middle bittering addition from the recipe on page 1 and focus on a larger whirlpool addition.

He also said their original gravity is approximately 1.072 and not 1.080 with a FG of around 1.012, significantly drier than 1.016. Firestone and homebrewers trying to mimic Firestone's beers are able to get this kind of attenuation by having a very fermentable wort. This is achieved with a lower mash temp (145) for 60 min and then increasing it to 155 for 15min. Also, the fermentation regimen is very important to see that type of attenuation. You would want to start the fermentation at 62F allowing it to rise to 67 after 24hrs and then finishing it off in the low 70s. This type of temperature regimen allows the yeast to stay very active throughout the entire fermentation with out throwing off a lot of esters in the beginning and then finishing off with a nice diacetyl rest.

I hope this helps!

:mug:
 
TorribleBrew said:
Hey Jason,

I dont think anyone has addressed your question about IBU's. Matt at Firestone is getting a large portion of his IBUs from the whirlpool addition. In this addition you are still getting isomerizaiton of the alpha acids albeit at a lesser rate. With a large whirlpool addition you are getting massive aroma with significant bittering if you use enough hops. However, most homebrew software do not account for the actual bittering that is going on, especially in a long 30 minute whirlpool. In response to my email to Matt at Firestone (reference page 24 of this thread), he said you should probably decrease the middle bittering addition from the recipe on page 1 and focus on a larger whirlpool addition.

He also said their original gravity is approximately 1.072 and not 1.080 with a FG of around 1.012, significantly drier than 1.016. Firestone and homebrewers trying to mimic Firestone's' beers are able to get this kind of attenuation by having a very fermentable wort. This is achieved with a lower mash temp (145) for 60 min and then increasing it to 155 for 15min. Also, the fermentation regimen is very important to see that type of attenuation. You would want to start the fermentation at 62F allowing it to rise to 67 after 24hrs and then finishing it off in the low 70s. This type of temperature regimen always the yeast to stay very active throughout the entire fermentation with out throwing off a lot of esters in the beginning and then finishing off with a nice diacetyl rest.

I hope this helps!

:mug:
Click to expand...

Wow, thanks for all the info! I hadn't ever considered whirlpooling as a way to get more bitterness, but it makes sense. Also, I find it interesting that they finish around 1.012. That beer didn't taste that dry to me. Back to the drawing board for my 3 gal BIAB recipe...
Thanks again for the info!
 
jason91notch said:
Wow, thanks for all the info! I hadn't ever considered whirlpooling as a way to get more bitterness, but it makes sense. Also, I find it interesting that they finish around 1.012. That beer didn't taste that dry to me. Back to the drawing board for my 3 gal BIAB recipe...
Thanks again for the info!
Click to expand...

Yeah those numbers make sense... I've brewed this clone twice now with great success. My OG was at 1.072 and I finished at around 1.016 - so didn't get exactly there but close enough. It tastes delicious and I am quite happy with it.

IMO - this clone/beer is so good that even if you miss your numbers slightly, you're still going to end up with an incredible homebrew.

I'm brewing batch 3 this weekend, can't wait :mug:
 
Tried my extract version I brewed back in January last night. All the dry hop and bitterness was gone. It was like a dark lite ale. gotta drink this guy early.
 
if i am using the bruns water spreadsheet, what water profile do you consider to fit this beer? can i use the pale ale profile to enhance the hops? or the black hoppy profile?

i have tasted this beer for a while and i think it is very balanced, but i dont know if the black balanced profile could fit this beer on the spreasheet. Whats your opinion?

And just to be sure, the recipe calls for carafa III malt, it that the one with husk?

Thanks!
 

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