How to get the best hop aroma from flameout additions?

Williams 728
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Randy_Bugger said:
The lower the temperature, the longer it takes to extract the aromatic oils. So a hop stand at 140* for 20 minutes might be similar to a hop stand at 110* for 45 minutes or a hop stand at 160* for 10 minutes.

He didn't recommend a time period for a hop stand at 110*. Damn it!
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But the higher the temperature the more of the various oil fractions are volatilized and lost. Hop-backs and torpedoes aim to get around this by making it so the extracted oils have nowhere to go until they are cooled and "stuck" in solution.
 
Somebody needs to email that guy.

I have a plate chiller. I guess I need an immersion chiller too. :mad:

I think I'll try dumping a gallon of ice cold water at flame out and see how low that gets me next time.
 
Randy_Bugger said:
Somebody needs to email that guy.

I have a plate chiller. I guess I need an immersion chiller too. :mad:

I think I'll try dumping a gallon of ice cold water at flame out and see how low that gets me next time.
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It's extremely easy to build your own immersion chiller.

Three parts, simple wrench, and hopefully, a CO2 cylinder or corny keg or something else to form the coil about, takes less than an hour.

Get the dishwasher compression fittings for your size copper coil from Home Depot. Wrap coil around the cylinder, and attach the fittings.

This one I made during the dancing show my SWMBO was watching.

I agree though. Need to have someone nail the chemistry expert down to specifics!!

I think that if truly ALL the essential oils were instantly vaporized when hops added at flameout, that there would be no hopheads, and that some of the oils must survive into the beer. It's kinda like mash enzymes, they don't instantly flip on and off.

But this thread has been nice. I am thinking about doing a zombie dust clone with the regular additions, plus a hop stand with three additions at three temp points, and finish it off with a hoprocket packed with leaf Citra!

TD

image-1293138257.jpg
 
Randy_Bugger said:
Somebody needs to email that guy.

I have a plate chiller. I guess I need an immersion chiller too. :mad:

I think I'll try dumping a gallon of ice cold water at flame out and see how low that gets me next time.
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That's why I just sold my plate chiller and went back to my IC. I'm thinking of building one into my kettle. . . .
 
I contacted James Altwies of Gorst Valley Hops and he provided some very good information. I'm waiting to hear back from him to get permission to post it here. :)
 
I asked James Altwies of Gorst Valley Hops to explain why he recommended steeping temperatures in the 110-120F range, if higher temperatures were useful and to suggest a steeping time for various temperatures. This was his reply:


James Altweis said:
The lowest vaporization point for farnescene is 79F, caryophyllene is 140F, myrcene is ~120F and Humulene is way up around 250F. So it really depends on the hop you are using and when you are adding them. This is a duration issue as you mention and estimating how long at what temp is very tricky. We can calculate it but that's very ugly.

We have found that many of these oils are already damaged or missing in conventionally dried hops (dried at 150F for 8 hrs) so your best bet is to find low temp hops or use your own. What I'm saying is you may not see a big difference in addition temps or steeping times with conventional home brew store pellets or cones.

That being said, the best answer I can give is it depends on the hop you are using and what aroma character you are looking for. If you want musty and funky from Saaz then low temp is best for farnescene. If you are after herbal then you want Humulene and can steep at higher temps. If you are looking for floral then myrcene is the oil and low temp is best.

Again, the hop variety is most critical. Look for the oil characteristics and know what aroma you are after and choose accordingly. A hop with 70% Humulene will need to steep for less time than a hop with 40% Humulene to get herbal character. If you are going for herbal and the Humulene is 40% and the myrcene is at 60% you would steep at a higher temp to drive off the floral and keep the herbal.

On the other hand if you wanted big floral without the herbal you would need to choose a hop high in myrcene and very low in Humulene since you will need to steep at a lower temp. You will pull both oils into solution.
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So there isn't a steeping time or temperature that will be universally ideal. It depends on the hops you are using and what you want to extract from them.
 
Interesting info on the different hop oils Randy. So how do you find out how much of these oils are in different hops? My hop packs just have Alfa and beta on them, is there a chart or link that would have more info?
 
I've seen 3 different boiling points for myrcene. Ray daniels says 165, beersmith.com says 147 and now your guy is saying 120. Can we agree on anything?! :D
 
To be fair, if you just toss a lid on the pot and keep temps reasonable then you'll probably capture most of the volatile oils. Just cool it before removing the lid
 
The book for the love of hops, goes into a lot of detail about flavor and aroma compounds, and the challenges in how to identify them by smell, both qualitatively and quantitatively by mass-spec/photo-spec methods. There are charts, and discussion of other compounds like gerialool, and others that's a bit hard to comprehend. After watching the podcast, I am going to re-read and maybe get a better understanding.

The book also documents the oil % and other vital characteristics of all hops, incl all of the hot new varieties available.

It is a very interesting read and I've only just begun. It is quite clear however that when it comes to Hops, there is a certain amount of mystery or zymurgy going on as far as what is happening with the flavors and aromas, and why. Science hasn't fully puzzled out all of the nitty gritty detail on this yet, and possibly never will- at least from my standpoint in the book where I am at now.

TD
 
Krovitz said:
I've seen 3 different boiling points for myrcene. Ray daniels says 165, beersmith.com says 147 and now your guy is saying 120. Can we agree on anything?! :D
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James Altweis is the only one who grows hops out of the three and has a lot more education in hop chemistry than the other two combined. I believe him.

If we get a guy from Hop Union that says myrcene has a boiling point of 138F, then we have a legitimate discrepancy. :cross:
 
Gorst Valley Hops sells 90% of their hops to the pros. Home brewers can currently order them online from Rite Brew. Brew and Grow will start selling them in the Fall.

They cost more than the hops you currently buy, but they are processed in a manner that preserves more hop oils, unlike the hops you currently buy.

James Altweis said:
Our pellets never exceed 100F, are processed under nitrogen at all times and cones are dried using only ambient temperatures. So far GVH is the only hop processor doing this and the chemistry speaks for itself.
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I'm going to give them a try the next time I brew something hoppy.

:rockin:
 
Didn't do a search yet, but wondering if anyone has used these, and used them in a manner consistent with what he described on the pod cast:


Low temp, post boil hop stand

And if so, what they thought about it.

Only 7 common domestic varieties, none of the cool new varieties. However, I might try a cascade brew with those hops. I wonder how they ship them however. If they ship them across county in mid summer, to Florida, where I live, the temp on the delivery truck is going to exceed the flash point of some of those hops oils, farnseen for sure at 79 (I find that one hard to believe).

Anyway, the prices of shipping has exceeded the hop price increases!! I hate to dole out 8 for vial of yeast, and then 12+ for express shipping, and then find the ice packs are warm and totally melted!

Would love feedback however from anyone who has used his hops..

TD
 
Randy_Bugger said:
Somebody needs to email that guy.

I have a plate chiller. I guess I need an immersion chiller too. :mad:

I think I'll try dumping a gallon of ice cold water at flame out and see how low that gets me next time.
Click to expand...

Cheaper to just put a return on your kettle. I whirlpool/chill to 145ºF (soon to be 110ºF) through my plate chiller, commence the hop stand/whirlpool rest, then finish with a pass through the chiller to pitching temp.
 
logdrum said:
Cheaper to just put a return on your kettle. I whirlpool/chill to 145ºF (soon to be 110ºF) through my plate chiller, commence the hop stand/whirlpool rest, then finish with a pass through the chiller to pitching temp.
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Then I would need to buy a $$$ pump. I currently use gravity to drain.

I suppose I could drain and chill part of the batch and dump it back in the kettle. Might be worth a try.
 
Randy_Bugger said:
Then I would need to buy a $$$ pump. I currently use gravity to drain.

I suppose I could drain and chill part of the batch and dump it back in the kettle. Might be worth a try.
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If you had a large enough pot or sanitized bucket, you could drain it all and then siphon back into kettle.

TD
 
Randy_Bugger said:
If I drained it all, the temperature would be 60F. My water is really cold.
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Ah ha.
I have a ThruMometer installed on the wort out of my plate chill and adjust the inlet rate of the both cooling water and wort with ball valves to achieve the desired temp. If you have a valve or just an adjustable crimp or clamp you could do the same, even a cheapie plastic over the tubing type hose clamp. Adjusting the water flow should be possible. If the water is really cold, however, you might be able to run the wort full speed with gravity, and the water flow rate could be restricted from the faucet it's hooked to.

My water is very warm, so I am envious. I need to use ice in the cooling water frequently.

TD
 
Good suggestions! I've been meaning to get a thrumometer. That would make it easier to hit 110 in one drain. I could steep in the bucket and drain the bucket with a spigot through the chiller into another bucket.

Most of the year I can open my BK valve all the way and not adjust the flow of the water and it chills somewhere between 60-65. If the summer is really hot for the entire summer, I open the BK valve about 3/4. If I open it up all the way in the middle of a cold winter, I can chill into the 50s. I just use a little less faucet pressure in that situation. The thrumometer would take the guesswork out of that too.

I'm sold on the thrumometer. Thanks!
 
Randy_Bugger said:
Good suggestions! I've been meaning to get a thrumometer. That would make it easier to hit 110 in one drain. I could steep in the bucket and drain the bucket with a spigot through the chiller into another bucket.

Most of the year I can open my BK valve all the way and not adjust the flow of the water and it chills somewhere between 60-65. If the summer is really hot for the entire summer, I open the BK valve about 3/4. If I open it up all the way in the middle of a cold winter, I can chill into the 50s. I just use a little less faucet pressure in that situation. The thrumometer would take the guesswork out of that too.

I'm sold on the thrumometer. Thanks!
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The ThruMometer is nice, but it lags the real temp a bit when there is a large shift in temp. It definitely helps dial you in, but it takes a bit of fiddling with all your valves, and so forth to get it dialed in. I do 11 - 10 gal now and since it takes longer to run off, I've had some inadvertent hop stands during cooling. I think that in order to maximize the plate chiller effectiveness, you really need a pump to be sure all the plates are exposed to the wort, and also a high rate of flow on the water. When using gravity only, my wort took an hour to chill from boil with ground water temp. This does not jive with the capabilities of the therminator at all. However, I think it contributesd to an un-intended hop stand.. Nevertheless, I think I am going to use regular additions, plus immersion chiller at end of boil, and then do some ,maybe 3 different additions of 1 oz at 160, 125, and 110 hop additions as the wort chills post-boil and giving maybe 10, 15, and 20 minute rest at each step. I'll bet that would make for some killer flavor and aroma.

Not sure when I'll have a chance to try, but I will def post the results when I do.

TD
 
I tested a hot hop stand at 190-200F, but it didnt seem to work for me. Someone could have said in an earlier post, or I misunderstood, but I can try an cooler hop stand next time.

The hops stands I did was for an Imperial IPA (9% abv) and Pale ale (6.5 abv) I did not notice a difference between these and the previous batches. Typically these hops are a 5 min addition. I moved them to the WP addition instead.

Aprox. 37 oz of hops were used. This is with a 1.5 bbl batch and a 30 min hop stand. I can try at a lower temp next time, but it'll be a month or so before I know the results.
 
Well I would ordinarily agree, but look at photography, before digital. You had to wait to develop your film... So you would take notes on exposure settings. Flm back then was not inexpensive, and developing was costly, so you didn't just recklessly snap pictures - well usually anyway.

Taking notes and labeling your beer so you know which batch it is from will help to refine your process over time on how to eliminate flaws.

TD
 
I plate chilled about half the batch and dumped it back into the kettle. The temperature was luckily 117F and then I did a 20 minute aroma steep. Score!

The batch did have some pretty good aroma before I pitched the yeast. Six weeks to judgement day.
 
I brewed 2 different 2.5 gal batches last week and both were FO only hop stands of 30 minutes.

One batch was a 1.060 Red Ale with 3oz Centennial thrown in at 190 degrees, stirred/whirpool every 5 min then cooled down to yeast pitching temps in 15 min. Temp dropped down to 175 after 30 min but I kept the lid on hoping to keep flavors in.

The other was a 1.058 Pale Ale with A 190 FO addition of 2oz Citra for 30 min. I also plan on dry hopping this brew with another oz.

I'm quite curious to see how these turn out, especially if they have enough bitterness, will ley you know in a few weeks.
 
Just thought about this today from a beer I made last night; does a hop stand affect when to add Irish Moss to kettle? I did a one hour hop stand at two temperature steps and noticed that the normal clumping of proteins and clarity of the wort in the kettle was underwhelming compared to when I chill immediately after boiling. What I did was add Irish Moss 10 minutes before the end of the boil, added flameout hops stirred gently every 5 minutes or so until at 30 minutes post boil the temperature was 180 degrees, then chilled to 160 for another 30 minute stand, then chilled down to 70 which took maybe another 1/2 hour (my tap water is on the warm side). Did the hour long hop stand render my Irish Moss ineffective because it was in hot wort too long?
 
Regarding time/temperature, I've done two Stone Ruination clones so far, both utilizing a hop stand. On the first batch, I dropped the temp to 190F, then tossed in the 2oz of Centennial pellets, and stirred occasionally while maintaining temp for 30 mins. The citrus aroma/flavor from this batch was absolutely fantastic.
On the second batch, I did the same as before, but extended the stand to 45 mins instead. The citrus aroma/flavor was no where near as strong as the first batch, to my disappointment.

I'm guessing 190F is above the flashpoint for the citrus flavor hop oil, and the longer hop stand only helped to diminish that flavor. For the next batch, I think I'm going to try a 45 min stand at 170F.

Does anyone know of an article/sight that lists the various hop oils and their flavors, along with flash points?
 
180 F is a simmer and really not all that different from boiling, despite the vigor. For a proper aroma steep, a safe zone is below 170-165 F.
 
Thanks Homebrewhaha! I don't know how I missed that post.

I'm guessing with Centennial hops, I'm focusing on Myrcene? So a hop stand at what, 140-145F?
 
I've heard contradictory reports on myrcene's boiling point and overall volatility. Check out this article and the comments section: http://beersensoryscience.wordpress.com/2011/08/08/myrcene/

More articles:

http://beerlegends.com/myrcene-oil
http://inhoppursuit.blogspot.com/2011/07/hop-oil-is-bigger-better-preview-of.html

Each of these articles have their own faults, assumptions, and actual facts. So it's hard to actually come to a conclusion on many issues surrounding myrcene and how to best harness it in an IPA. I've had great luck with hot hop additions (boil), warm hop additions (aroma steep/whirlpool), cold hop additions (dryhop). In my experience, anywhere below 165 F-ish seems to be the sweet spot for myrcene. I usually let the wort rest from 165-65 F in a very slow chill anywhere from 40-60 minutes with the majority of the steep being held between 165-100 F.
 
Another thing I found interesting in BYO article that nobody has mentioned yet is the diminishing returns on dry-hopping:

"Havig's study also showed that adding 1 lb./bbl (0.45 kg/bbl) Amarillo® dry hops produced the same amount of hop aroma as ½ lb./bbl (0.23 kg/bbl), indicating diminishing returns at higher dry hop rates."

So no need to waste precious IPA hops by overloading the fermenter with dry hops.

1 barrel is 31 gallons right? So a 5 gallon batch is 16% of a barrel batch. Study shows hop aroma with a half pound of hops per barrel was same as a full pound. So no need to use more than 16% x 8 ounces = 1.3 ounces dry hops per batch. (All numbers approx.)

Of course, does that mean 1.3 ounces per variety? If you are using Simcoe & Amarillo, would you use 1.3 ounces each?

Also, that part of the study was focused soley on aroma - I personally feel that dry hops do add flavor in addition to aroma, so more additional dry hops still might be beneficial.....

/end ramble
 
DustBow said:
Another thing I found interesting in BYO article that nobody has mentioned yet is the diminishing returns on dry-hopping:

"Havig's study also showed that adding 1 lb./bbl (0.45 kg/bbl) Amarillo® dry hops produced the same amount of hop aroma as ½ lb./bbl (0.23 kg/bbl), indicating diminishing returns at higher dry hop rates."

So no need to waste precious IPA hops by overloading the fermenter with dry hops.
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This is because when there is less contact exposure. Add 2 oz. leaf hops to the average carboy without weighing the hops down, and you'll have decent exposure despite having a floating layer. But add 4 oz. and your exposure will be more like 50%. That is one reason why we recommend two or three staged dryhops (pulling out the old and adding the new). You have more contact this way. So there is not exactly a diminishing return. A 4 oz. fully exposed dryhop will be more potent than one half its strength.
 
TheHairyHop said:
To be fair, if you just toss a lid on the pot and keep temps reasonable then you'll probably capture most of the volatile oils. Just cool it before removing the lid
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This is what I've been doing and have noticed a lot of condensation under the lid that rolls back into the pot every time I stir.

Seems a little confusing to me with all the different temps, oils and different hop varieties. Wouldn't keeping a lid on your kettle keep most oils from escaping making different temps a mute point?
 
bobbrews said:
This is because when there is less contact exposure. Add 2 oz. leaf hops to the average carboy without weighing the hops down, and you'll have decent exposure despite having a floating layer. But add 4 oz. and your exposure will be more like 50%. That is one reason why we recommend two or three staged dryhops (pulling out the old and adding the new). You have more contact this way. So there is not exactly a diminishing return. A 4 oz. fully exposed dryhop will be more potent than one half its strength.
Click to expand...

this makes sense as well
 
Nice article in zymurgy by author of for love of hops. Little specific detail as far as how to achieve, but discusses many considerations and contributory factors, the most interesting in my opinion was the interaction with yeast. I find this interesting because it is implied in his book, that commercial brewers appear to dry hop prior to completion of fermentation to scrub oxygen from the hops and presumably to prevent oxidization. Unfortunately no details on flash points.

TD
 
A decent experiment might be to just steep a cup of water with hops for an hour. One cup at 200, one at 190, etc.

Fermentation may change the character, but this method could allow a cursory glance at the relationship between flavor and temperature.
 

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