Late addition extract question. Lead to a 30 min discussion that was cut way short.

Conversation I had last night about extract batch. The final product he was trying to acheive was a light clear color for bud light drinkers.

If you steep grains for one hour, bring to boil, and dont add your extract Liquid and Dry until 30 or even 15 mins left of boil does this change the profile of you beer.

I had a 30 min discussion on this last night and my thought was both LME and DME are extracts with "base grains". Flavors and color come from the steeping process. by adding the LME and DME from 30 to 15 would achieve SG but will help in preventing the LME and DME to scorch and add more color.

The other half of the discussion was by doing this would change the entire flavor of the beer and not be what he is looking for.

I attemped to drive the point that extracts are nothing but base grains with no or little flavor and you get Color and Flavor from steeping grains. I went unheard so I figure I would ask HBT for input as this conversation must have happened before.

Boiling the extracts for a full hour can change the flavor of the beer a bit- you can get more of a "cooked extract" taste due to maillard reactions (similar to caramelization type of flavors). The color would be darker as well, due to these same maillard reactions.

Adding the extract at or near the end of the boil makes a "cleaner" tasting beer, but I don't know how else to describe it except less like cooked extract and more like a comparable all grain beer.

I don't think there would be an appreciable difference between a 30 minute addition of extract vs a 60 minute boil, though. At least, not a very big difference. There is a big difference between boiling all the extract for 60 minutes vs adding the majority of it at flame out, though!

You get flavor & color from any extract used. You get some little flavor from steeping grains. And color of course. Mashing base grains with specialty & crystal grains is when you start getting real flavor additions. but the extract lends it's own flavors to any beer. They are def not neutral flavor-wise.
And late extract additions are great for getting lighter color & cleaner flavor. I do them at flame out myself. Some plain DME in the boil for hop additions. Remaining DME & all LME at flame out for AE brews. For partial mash,I use the fresh grain wort for hop additions,the extract at flame out.

So after steeping your specialty grains, you boil just that a little (half?) DME with the hop schedule and add all the rest of the DME and all the LME at flameout? Do you let the wort sit for 5-10 minutes before chilling or stir in and go.

BTW, big R. Crumb fan here

HopWolf said:

So after steeping your specialty grains, you boil just that a little (half?) DME with the hop schedule and add all the rest of the DME and all the LME at flameout? Do you let the wort sit for 5-10 minutes before chilling or stir in and go.

BTW, big R. Crumb fan here

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Yeah,he's been cool forever. If,for instance,you have a 3lb bag of DMe,then use 1.5-2lbs in the partial boil of 2.5-3.5 gallons. do all your hop additions.etc. then add the remaining DME & all the LME at flame out. Stir really well til no LME can be scraped off the bottom of the kettle. Since it's still boiling hot,& pasteurization happens about 162F,just cover it & let it steep for a few minutes while you get ready for the ice bath,rehydrate yeast,etc.

Yooper said:

Boiling the extracts for a full hour can change the flavor of the beer a bit- you can get more of a "cooked extract" taste due to maillard reactions (similar to caramelization type of flavors). The color would be darker as well, due to these same maillard reactions.

Adding the extract at or near the end of the boil makes a "cleaner" tasting beer, but I don't know how else to describe it except less like cooked extract and more like a comparable all grain beer.

I don't think there would be an appreciable difference between a 30 minute addition of extract vs a 60 minute boil, though. At least, not a very big difference. There is a big difference between boiling all the extract for 60 minutes vs adding the majority of it at flame out, though!

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As part of his argument was you get massivly different flavors if its boiled for entire 60 mins. He tried to use a salt comparision that if you take a teaspoon of salt and boil it for 60 mins it was be saltier than it boiled at 30. I think this analogy was not the same as you would with sugar. I dont think salt carmalizes.

I get the fact of boiling sugar for longer periods will change the profile and make it carmalize does any know of any articles to support either's arguments by boiling for at 30 mins or less would change the end result.

eluterio said:

Conversation I had last night about extract batch. The final product he was trying to acheive was a light clear color for bud light drinkers.

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Obviously, light clear color does not equal a beer for bud light drinkers. I made a session saison that's AT LEAST as light as bud light but tastes nothing like BL. Also, Allagash White is easily as light as BL but, again, tastes nothing like BL. The obvious difference between most ales and BL is that BL is brewed with lager yeast and uses rice as an adjunct (these two things are HUGE in defining the taste of BL).

eluterio said:

If you steep grains for one hour, bring to boil, and dont add your extract Liquid and Dry until 30 or even 15 mins left of boil does this change the profile of you beer.

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Yes, it will change the profile of your beer - usually in a good way. However, as has been mentioned, you're better off aiming for even later than 30-15 minutes (like 5-0 minutes).

eluterio said:

I had a 30 min discussion on this last night and my thought was both LME and DME are extracts with "base grains". Flavors and color come from the steeping process. by adding the LME and DME from 30 to 15 would achieve SG but will help in preventing the LME and DME to scorch and add more color.

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Flavors, color, body comes from both extracts and steeping grains. With zero steeping grains you will still get something you would definitely call beer. You would think "This is beer" but probably couldn't put your finger on what style of beer it is. Adding the extracts at the end of boil will prevent carmelization, malliard effects, and additional color darkening - scorching is almost always a bad thing in brewing. If you're scorching then you're doing something wrong.

eluterio said:

The other half of the discussion was by doing this would change the entire flavor of the beer and not be what he is looking for.

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I don't agree that this would change "the entire flavor of the beer". It will affect the final flavor of your beer but not night and day. Like I mentioned, the final product is still beer and, in the case of trying to create a beer for BL drinkers, you are much more likely to accomplish this with late extract additions rather than full boil additions.

eluterio said:

I attemped to drive the point that extracts are nothing but base grains with no or little flavor and you get Color and Flavor from steeping grains. I went unheard so I figure I would ask HBT for input as this conversation must have happened before.

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Extracts are base grains - possibly with some additional specialty grains depending on your source - and contain plenty of flavor to create a beverage called beer (i.e. fermented malt beverage). You get additional color and flavor from steeping grains that help you dial in a beer profile/style.

eluterio said:

I get the fact of boiling sugar for longer periods will change the profile and make it carmalize does any know of any articles to support either's arguments by boiling for at 30 mins or less would change the end result.

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If you google "maillard reactions", you'll get the gist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maillard_reaction

It's like toast vs bread. Putting bread in the toaster causes maillard reactions (the browing). The flavor difference is notable between bread and toast. And the darker the toast, the more maillard reactions, the more notable the differences.

Stpug thank you! You were answered in ways that I can discribe to the other guy. I agree with BL is nothing like a light colored beer I tried to explain that to him but I dont think I explained it clear enough for him. I use too big of words and to much discription.

Yooper said:

If you google "maillard reactions", you'll get the gist. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maillard_reaction

It's like toast vs bread. Putting bread in the toaster causes maillard reactions (the browing). The flavor difference is notable between bread and toast. And the darker the toast, the more maillard reactions, the more notable the differences.

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If I attempt to explain it with this I wouldnt make it to the D in Maillard. Thanks for the info though.

unionrdr said:

Yeah,he's been cool forever. If,for instance,you have a 3lb bag of DMe,then use 1.5-2lbs in the partial boil of 2.5-3.5 gallons. do all your hop additions.etc. then add the remaining DME & all the LME at flame out. Stir really well til no LME can be scraped off the bottom of the kettle. Since it's still boiling hot,& pasteurization happens about 162F,just cover it & let it steep for a few minutes while you get ready for the ice bath,rehydrate yeast,etc.

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Only have 1lb of dry and 9lbs of LME, I also have 1 1/2lbs of specialty grains that I'll steep in maybe a gallon of water as described and add it to the kettle. I plan on a full boil of about 6.5 gallons to start with including the steeped grain (is that a mini mash?) and save all the LME till the end.

So between the steeped grains and maybe 1/2 pound or so of DME in a full boil will that be enough for the hop utilization?

Thanks in advance

Zippy out

HopWolf said:

Only have 1lb of dry and 9lbs of LME, I also have 1 1/2lbs of specialty grains that I'll steep in maybe a gallon of water as described and add it to the kettle. I plan on a full boil of about 6.5 gallons to start with including the steeped grain (is that a mini mash?) and save all the LME till the end.

So between the steeped grains and maybe 1/2 pound or so of DME in a full boil will that be enough for the hop utilization?

Thanks in advance

Zippy out

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That sounds like an extract batch, with some steeping grains (not partial mash or mini mash, as no base grain is in the steep, and there is no mashing).

Anyway, I like to use about 1 pound of extract per each gallon of water in the boil. It makes a nice beer, comparable to a similar all-grain batch. You don't need to do that, though, and your technique will work as well. I'd probably rather stir in the bulk of the LME in at flame out, but 9 pounds of LME at one time is a LOT! I'd probably go with about 3-4 pounds in the beginning, and the rest at flame out.

Yooper said:

That sounds like an extract batch, with some steeping grains (not partial mash or mini mash, as no base grain is in the steep, and there is no mashing).

Anyway, I like to use about 1 pound of extract per each gallon of water in the boil. It makes a nice beer, comparable to a similar all-grain batch. You don't need to do that, though, and your technique will work as well. I'd probably rather stir in the bulk of the LME in at flame out, but 9 pounds of LME at one time is a LOT! I'd probably go with about 3-4 pounds in the beginning, and the rest at flame out.

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Adding all or most of your extract at the end of boil means you have change your hopping rates, right?

drainbamage said:

Adding all or most of your extract at the end of boil means you have change your hopping rates, right?

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No. It used to be thought that wort gravity impacted hops utilization, but that's been disproven. John Palmer said he "got it wrong" in How to Brew.

Boil size, due to dilution, can impact hops utilization but adding the extract late does not.

Apparently this this topic is decent one. With some interesting technic that i didnt know.

With my partial boils,whether AE or PM BIAB,the hop utilization is quite good with a 3.5 gallon boil in my 5 gallon ss stock pot. Since you have only one pound of DME,maybe add a pound or two of all that LME with it to do the boil. That'd still save most of the LME for flame out.

Thanks all, between the unionDR and Yooper I've going this route.
Five gallons in the kettle to start warming while I steep 1 1/2lbs of grains in 1 1/2 gallons on the stove, strain this into the kettle with a little rinse of the kettle water. I'll add the full pound of DME and a couple of lbs of the LME with rest added right before flameout.
I'm keeping the hop schedule the same unless advised otherwise and I'll be making a starter tonight, maybe a 2L for brewing tomorrow afternoon. I'm looking forward to this one as I can consume some of my Black IPA and I have a tasty cigar to keep me busy in between smelling the hops.

Happy Brew Day everyone

This is a good thread. But does style matter? With a scotch ale for instance, aren't there reasons to do a long boil with the extract to give some extra malt character? You are not so concerned about the color effects. Aren't there aspects of the style that benefit from cooking the extract so to speak? Or does that only apply to doing an all-grain scotch ale?

scrambled said:

This is a good thread. But does style matter? With a scotch ale for instance, aren't there reasons to do a long boil with the extract to give some extra malt character? You are not so concerned about the color effects. Aren't there aspects of the style that benefit from cooking the extract so to speak? Or does that only apply to doing an all-grain scotch ale?

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Interesting would like to hear what others have to say.

That's refering to AG scotish ales like 9E,called Wee Heavy. mash temps differ as to boil times as well to get some caramelization. You can do it with extracts,but it's a bit harder not to get that extract twang in doing so. but many other styles just use grain malts for flavor & color. The op was talking about a light colored beer for BMC drinking friends. So style matters in so much as process is concerned.
And it's unionrdr (unionrodder) not union doctor (unionDR)...

Yooper said:

No. It used to be thought that wort gravity impacted hops utilization, but that's been disproven. John Palmer said he "got it wrong" in How to Brew.

Boil size, due to dilution, can impact hops utilization but adding the extract late does not.

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How would one calculate the changes to amount of hops based on the change in boil volume? IIRC, it's an inverse relationship, right? (Ie, higher boil volume, use less hops?) I remember reading something to that effect, but can't remember the science/reason behind it (or I could have it backwards, as it would seem more intuitive to add more hops to more volume)... Someone please explain why again... Thx!

I tried to incorporate what I've learned from you guys about this stuff in my last brew day:
The recipe (for an extract Barleywine) called for steeping the specialty grains in 2 gal, and then adding a gal and boiling three gal, as well as adding all the 10 lb LME and 1 lb DME at the beginning of the 60 min boil. I instead used just one gal for steeping (based on reading in How to Brew that he said use 1-3 qt per lb of spec grains; I used the middle of that, 2 qt/lb, and had 2 lb spec grain, so used 4 qts or 1 gal), and then boiled 4 gal (didn't have big enough kettle for all 5/5.5, so 4 was about my max). I added the 1 lb DME and 3 lb LME (as mentioned above - 1 lb/gal boiled) at the beginning, and then the remaining 7 lb LME at flameout. The only thing I didn't do was change the amounts of hops added (or the timing, of course)... So would my beer be slightly more hoppy since I didn't reduce the amounts (or less, if I do indeed have that relationship backwards)? More I wouldn't mind, as it'll prob mellow over time as I age this Barleywine... But less wouldn't be ideal (although I guess I could dry hop at the end of the secondary to make up for it, if needed?)...

Thanks for any insight, and I appreciate all the great info (especially for a newb like myself) on here - cheers!