Recipe help Kern River Citra DIPA AG to Extract

Planning on brewing Jamil's clone:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f69/kern-river-citra-dipa-343603/

Grain Bill is:
10 lbs 6 oz Great Western 2 Row (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 82.0 %
9.2 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 4.6 %
9.2 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 3 4.6 %
9.2 oz Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 4 4.6 %
4.4 oz White Wheat Malt (2.4 SRM) Grain 6 2.2 %
4.4 oz Honey Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 5 2.2 %

Any suggestions on a grain bill for extract?

Should I just convert the 2 row (e.g 10.6 *.6 = 6.36lbs extract) and keep everything else the same when I steep?

You will have to make some sacrifices and amendments since you will not be mashing. I suggest skipping the small amount of wheat and munich. You may get some recommendations to buy them in Extract form instead. But if you were to use them in Extract form, you would only need like 5 oz. each. This seems more trouble than it's worth and an unnecessary cost. Additionally, these specialty LME's are usually cut with other malts so it wouldn't really be the same as mashing pure Munich.

Carapils is already in extract, so you can skip this too. Do not worry; you will not have any issues with body or head retention without the carapils. Sugar is also needed to help with attenuation; otherwise, you're likely to stall out above 1.016 FG. Because of these changes, the percentage of the DME will not fall in line with the percentage of 2-row used in the all-grain recipe... due to the lack of carapils and the addition of sugar.

Steep 4% C10 & 2% Honey malt for 30 minutes at 152-ish. Then, go with Briess Golden Light DME and 10-12% Corn Sugar to hit target FG. Use 30% of your DME at flameout and all of your Corn Sugar at flameout. The main portion of DME goes in at boil start.

WLP090 is very similar to WLP001. You will not be able to detect a flavor difference, but your attenuation and flocculation rates will be higher with the former choice. Attenuation is always an issue with extract clones of dry all grain beers, so it would be wise for you to make a healthy starter with WLP090... and remember to oxygenate extremely well before pitching the slurry.

I can certainly agree with everything bobbrews said.

I'd just like to recommend that you dive into your first partial mash with this one! I'd recommend buying one pound of a 2-row base malt, and all of the grains listed in the recipe except the Great Western base malt. Go through a stove top mash process in about a gallon of water, and simply round off the batch in your boil kettle with the Golden Light DME and extra water (...and hops). It's really not overly hard and you'll appreciate the accomplishment and the more complex flavor from all the grains. If you're interested, I'd be glad to help you out with a step by step (of how I'd do it anyway).

Good idea. Partial mash would be the way to go if you don't have the capacity for all-grain. But I would advise incorporating at least 25-33% mashing grains for a noticeable effect.

31%, or 3.0 lbs. Great WesternPremium 2-row malt (mashed)
21%, or 2.0 lbs. Briess Golden Light DME (at boil start)
26%, or 2.5 lbs. Briess Golden Light DME (at flameout)
10%, or 1.0 lbs. Corn Sugar (at flameout)
4%, or 6.0 oz. Briess Crystal 10L (mashed)
4%, or 6.0 oz. Great WesternMunich 8-10L (mashed)
2%, or 3.0 oz. Gambrinus Honey Malt (mashed)
2%, or 3.0 oz. Great Western White Wheat (mashed)

So that's about 4 lbs. of mashing grain. Order them cracked and hold the grain with 6 liters of 146-147 F water for 60-75 minutes.

1.011 FG with 84% Attenuation using a starter of WLP001, or preferably WLP090 -- which is certainly possible, but more than likely you may only hit 80-82%.

Thanks for all the suggestions, I really appreciate it. For now I am sticking to extract, though I would like to eventually move to AG. With a wife who stays home with two kids under the age of 5 and a job that keeps me out of the house about 60 hours a week, I am going to have a tough time convincing her to accept longer brew days. I like extract because I can bang out a batch with really only about 1.5 of actively watching things (really just when getting boil going and then the actual boil.) The rest of the time I am doing other things. Most of the time I brew late at night while everyone is sleeping.

This is late, but credit where it's due, it was actually Tasty who brewed this for the CYBI segment, not Jamil.

Delicious, I tasted this exact beer right before they recorded the show. Right place at the right time sort of thing.

bobbrews said:

Good idea. Partial mash would be the way to go if you don't have the capacity for all-grain. But I would advise incorporating at least 25-33% mashing grains for a noticeable effect.

31%, or 3.0 lbs. Great WesternPremium 2-row malt (mashed)
21%, or 2.0 lbs. Briess Golden Light DME (at boil start)
26%, or 2.5 lbs. Briess Golden Light DME (at flameout)
10%, or 1.0 lbs. Corn Sugar (at flameout)
4%, or 6.0 oz. Briess Crystal 10L (mashed)
4%, or 6.0 oz. Great WesternMunich 8-10L (mashed)
2%, or 3.0 oz. Gambrinus Honey Malt (mashed)
2%, or 3.0 oz. Great Western White Wheat (mashed)

So that's about 4 lbs. of mashing grain. Order them cracked and hold the grain with 6 liters of 146-147 F water for 60-75 minutes.

1.011 FG with 84% Attenuation using a starter of WLP001, or preferably WLP090 -- which is certainly possible, but more than likely you may only hit 80-82%.

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Reviving an older thread, as I'd like to try my hand at cloning my favorite beer. Which by the way would be my first try at brewing beer.

To anyone, is there a sparge after the steeping of the grains in the 6 liters of water for 60-75 minutes? Would you recommend that? Is it simply holding the cracked grains in a bag for the allotted time and pulling the bag and allowing the excess to drip back into the kettle before the boil?

Also, how was the amount of corn sugar to add at flameout calculated

Thanks,
Ron

I've noticed Bob has not posted on the forum since Nov of last year. I'm hoping things are fine with him.

Can anyone else chime in and help answer my questions. Bob's take on the partial mash is something I'd like to pursue.

Thanks.

roncruiser said:

Reviving an older thread, as I'd like to try my hand at cloning my favorite beer. Which by the way would be my first try at brewing beer.

To anyone, is there a sparge after the steeping of the grains in the 6 liters of water for 60-75 minutes? Would you recommend that? Is it simply holding the cracked grains in a bag for the allotted time and pulling the bag and allowing the excess to drip back into the kettle before the boil?

Also, how was the amount of corn sugar to add at flameout calculated

Thanks,
Ron

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You don't need to sparge. Just pull em.

If you're dead set on brewing this beer (I did the same thing, first attempt was my favorite beer) then I won't try to talk you out of it...but another great way to go is to start with a simple pale ale, dial your process in.

I don't say that because this beer is exceptionally challenging or anything...I say that because you really want the first time you NAIL a beer to be this one...so practice will help you dial it all in.

PS, the sugar was calculated from good judgment and experience. This beer finishes pretty dry, and getting bigger OG extract beers like this dry out can be challenging. The sugar addition will help to that end.

jbaysurfer said:

You don't need to sparge. Just pull em.

If you're dead set on brewing this beer (I did the same thing, first attempt was my favorite beer) then I won't try to talk you out of it...but another great way to go is to start with a simple pale ale, dial your process in.

I don't say that because this beer is exceptionally challenging or anything...I say that because you really want the first time you NAIL a beer to be this one...so practice will help you dial it all in.

PS, the sugar was calculated from good judgment and experience. This beer finishes pretty dry, and getting bigger OG extract beers like this dry out can be challenging. The sugar addition will help to that end.

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jaybaysurfer,

I am deadset on brewing this, but really most of the brewing will be conducted by a buddy that has done quite a few extract brews. I'll do what I can to help him

Question: In reference to Bob's post (post 4), why not use the full extent of the specialty grains as per the recipe in the first post? I understand eliminating most of the Great Western 2 row base grains, but why not use all of the specialty grains?

Thanks,
Ron

roncruiser said:

jaybaysurfer,

I am deadset on brewing this, but really most of the brewing will be conducted by a buddy that has done quite a few extract brews. I'll do what I can to help him

Question: In reference to Bob's post (post 4), why not use the full extent of the specialty grains as per the recipe in the first post? I understand eliminating most of the Great Western 2 row base grains, but why not use all of the specialty grains?

Thanks,
Ron

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To be clear, I don't want to become Bob's mouthpiece because I don't know him (only his HBT posts) and therefore I can't speak for him. But that said, he answers your question best with this quote:

You will have to make some sacrifices and amendments since you will not be mashing. I suggest skipping the small amount of wheat and munich. You may get some recommendations to buy them in Extract form instead. But if you were to use them in Extract form, you would only need like 5 oz. each. This seems more trouble than it's worth and an unnecessary cost.

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I'd add that technically speaking, wheat and Munich are base grains, not specialty grains..and the theory is that you're replacing your base grains with extract, while trying to be practical (and not purchase min. 1lb of wheat extract and 1lb of Munich extract separately (sometimes they might not be as readily available at your LHBS), saving you some cost and some hassle.

Edit: feel free to keep asking questions. I love this beer, and a recipe inspired by this recipe has personally won me a couple Gold Medals. Also Kyle Smith their Brewmaster is a very cool dude.

Thanks man. Been drinking Cita when available for a few years now. My bro won the 2014 Citra lottery recently. We went up to Kernville a couple weeks ago to pick up his six bottles. Had a few pints while we were there but the drive up and back is a monster. My craving for Citra is much greater than my desire to drive to get it. So, the next best thing is to brew it. :rockin:

jbaysurfer, to continue the dialogue... the original recipe called for 4.4 ounces of Honey Malt. While Bob's amended recipe contains only 3 ounces of Honey Malt. Sure they each contribute 2% to each recipes grain bill but isn't the quantity relatively more important than scaling especially for a specialty grain? Why not scale back on the base grains and keep the honey Malt at 4.4 ounces? I'm asking because I don't know, not because I'm challenging the recipe. Just trying to learn something.

You're not flawed in your logic, but practical use of honey malt has taught me a little goes a long way. I'd suggest you use the 3oz...but go with the 4.4 if you like. I like honey malt, but my version of this recipe uses 4oz in a 6G batch and I find that gets me the closest to the original version. Any more makes it too much honey sweetness and darkens the color (which, since you're doing an extract brew is already more likely to be darker then the original due to carmelizing taking place in the kettle).

I've done the same round trip haul form Santa Barbara to KRBC. I put my name in for the lottery this year and didn't get any bottles, but to be honest, after doing that drive 2 years ago, I was a little relieved to find out I wouldn't be doing it again. If you get a chance to meet the brewmaster, he's class act. And he's love to talk recipe with ya.

Keep in mind, you're focusing mostly on the grainbill in our discussion, but the magic of this beer is in the hops, honey malt can overshadow that if you're not careful and that may be why Bob scaled it back. Also, I find that extract beers tend to have a bit of residual sweetness that the original doesn't, so the honey malt added to that may take you further from, not closer to the original thing. This is generally a clean, dry beer with wonderful hop aroma and flavor. Too much honey, with carmelization in the kettle, and the reality of extract attenuation, is going to take away from that clean dry finish you're used too.

Edit: looking more closely, the percentages is what matters when you're talking about relative volume of grains. The original called for 2.2% while Bobs version rounds it down to 2%. So we're talking very close in terms of relative percentages.

Summary:
Recipe Typeartial Mash
Batch Size (fermenter): 5 gallons
OG:1.070
FG:1.010
Boil Time: 60 minutes
Water Condition: Hard. Low Alkalinity

Grain Bill:
31%, or 3.0 lbs. Great WesternPremium 2-row malt (mashed)
21%, or 2.0 lbs. Briess Golden Light DME (at boil start)
26%, or 2.5 lbs. Briess Golden Light DME (at flameout)
10%, or 1.0 lbs. Corn Sugar (at flameout)
4%, or 6.0 oz. Briess Crystal 10L (mashed)
4%, or 6.0 oz. Great WesternMunich 8-10L (mashed)
2%, or 3.0 oz. Gambrinus Honey Malt (mashed)
2%, or 3.0 oz. Great Western White Wheat (mashed)

Mash in 6 liters of 146-147 F water for 60-75 minutes.

Boil: Hop and Other Additions:
1.00 oz Nugget [10.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min 34.3 IBUs
0.60 oz Citra [10.50 %] - Boil 30.0 min 16.6 IBUs
0.50 oz Citra [10.50 %] - Boil 15.0 min 8.9 IBUs
0.50 oz Citra [10.50 %] - Boil 10.0 min 6.5 IBUs
0.50 oz Citra [10.50 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 3.6 IBUs
White Labs Servomyces Yeast Nutrient - Boil 5.0 min
Koppakleer or Whirlfloc Tablet - Boil 5.0 min
Notes: Whirlpool for 20 minutes after flameout.

Fermentation:
1.011 FG with 84% best attenuation- likely 80-82%. Use a healthy starter of WLP090. Option: Use WLP001.
Oxygenate the wort before pitching the yeast.
Primary Fermentation: 8 days @67 degrees
Secondary Fermentation: 12 days @67 degrees

Dry Hop Additions:
1.15 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 12.0
0.50 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Dry Hop 12.0
0.70 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 9.0 Days
0.90 oz Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Dry Hop 6.0 Days
1.10 oz Citra [12.00 %] - Dry Hop 3.0 Days

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Please chime in with anything I may be missing, or anything else that I should keep in mind or consider for this recipe.

Thanks.

Edit:3/17/2014
Notes:
-Carapils eliminated because sufficient amounts are present in the DME.

-The following represent a common theme for extract recipes:

Tonedef131 said:

I am a huge advocate of full boils. I think you can make outstanding beers with extract if you follow a few simple rules:

1. Full boil
2. Never get prehopped extract, always boil fresh hops.
3. Always use light malt extract and steep crystal/roasted malts for the color you want.

I also like DME as opposed to LME, but if you can get fresh LME it should be fine. Otherwise just follow the rest of the basic brewing rules of sanitation and pitching rates ect.

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homebrewer_99 said:

I've been doing it that way for years. The reason is to keep the color as light as possible without carmelizing it more.

IMO using LME starts out too dark for EVERY style I know of. I do not recommend it...EVER.

You can add it, stir to dissolve, and let sit for 15 mins and it's the same as boiling it.

Remember, LME is condenced wort...why boil it again?

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jbaysurfer,
If the OG is short a few points, do you recommend bumping up the specific gravity with DME or corn sugar? On the other hand, I've read a few comments stating to leave it alone and adjust the process or recipe to hit the OG the next time the beer is brewed.
Thanks,
Ron

Edit: I suppose I could boil a couple quarts of water short of a full boil (post evaporation), and add water to bring the OG back down.

I would just add a little DME. That's standard anyway. Lots of AG brewers keep DME on hand to bump up the OG if it's short. That said, if it's 3 pts or less off, I'd just leave it be.

roncruiser said:

I've noticed Bob has not posted on the forum since Nov of last year. I'm hoping things are fine with him.

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What's up everyone?! I'm great. Just busy being a professional restaurant chef!! It requires long hours and lots of focus. Sorry I haven't been around. How are you guys doing?